I thought I would draw up this article for all of you in order to give you a complete list of the 10 commandments. Most Christians do not have all of them memorized.
I will give you the specific verse from Scripture where the 10 commandments are being given to us by the Lord, along with some of the additional statements that God makes under some of these commandments that you usually do not see on the little tablets of the 10 commandments at your local Christian bookstore.
Before I give you this verse, consider one thing. Even though the 10 Commandments are from the Old Testament, all of these commandments still apply to everyone in this day and age.
No exceptions! I call each of these commands “stone commandments.”
This was one big huge event when it happened in the story of Moses. The fact that God would go this far in manifesting these special 10 commandments on a real live tablet of stone tells me that these commandments should never be taken lightly or for granted.
Most Christians have heard about these Ten Commandments while going through grade school and high school and the story as to how they all came about. As a result, I feel that many Christians take these special commandments for granted and really do not realize the power and authority that is on these special commandments.
The 10 commandments come to us from Exodus 20:1-17. Here is the verse:
1 – And God spoke all these words, saying: “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me.
2- You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.
For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
3 – You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
4 – Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates.
For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
5 – Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
6 – You shall not murder.
7 – You shall not commit adultery.
8 – You shall not steal.
9 -You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10 – You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”
The above 10 commandments don’t need any explanation. They mean exactly what they are saying. It’s quite amazing how many of these commandments are being broken on a regular basis, even by Christians themselves.
If you look very closely at each of these commandments, they really do cover a broad spectrum as to what God is expecting from each one of us.
These 10 commandments are good, basic, moral laws that will help keep us out of trouble with ourselves, family, friends, and neighbors. God knows what is best for all of us and He simply wants all of us to stay out of trouble in order that we may be able to live in peace and harmony with one another.
The fact that God would go so far as to have these basic 10 commandments manifested on a stone tablet really tells me they are very important, and that each Christian should know what they are and do their best to abide by them with the help of the Holy Spirit.
Feel free to pass this list of the 10 commandments onto your friends and family.
Hi,
What if one broke a few of the commandments without their knowledge and now has prayed for forgivness; will our ever Merceryful God forgive me on Judgement day?
Worried,
Any one who has asked for forgiveness of sins in the name of Jesus, is forgiven
Yes he will forgive you. It was for this reason that Jesus came and died on the cross
He is your salvation through his shed blood, so you can ask him to forgive you and
he is faithful too forgive you. We have all sinned and need Jesus .
So worry no more if you asked forgiveness. God loves us.
God bless and don’t worry.
The bible says, “Blessed are the merciful because they will receive the most mercy”.
No, god will not judge you for fears that he himself will be judged by you. Even though he forgives he does not forget.
Luke,
you must read your Holy Bible but first you need to buy it :-0).
Isaiah 43:25
“I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, And I will not remember your sins.
Peace be with you.
Jasna,
If you believe in Jesus, and ask Him to forgive you of your sins , they are all washed away and God remembers them no more. And when you do accept Jesus as tour Lord and savior this doesn’t mean you automatically stop sinning. We are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God, but we can continuously repent and He forgives us and helps us not to fall to those sins again. Being a Christian does not mean you are perfect it means you are redeemed. We do good not because we are perfect but because we Love God and understand the price Jesus paid so we strive to follow His guidelines. The bible says:
1 John 5:2-4 NKJV
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world— our faith.
I don’t know what the last person meant but the bible says:
Hebrews 10:17 NKJV
then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
I hope this helps , God bless you .
Jasna, God wants to forgive you, you just need to ask him to do so. John 3:16 is “For God so loved the world (Jasna) that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever (Jasna) believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life.” vs. 17 “For God sent not his son into the world to condemn (sentence to death) but that though him they might be saved.” The book of John is a good starting point to learn of God’s love, mercy, and forgiveness. We all sin, we all come short of the glory of God, that is why Jesus died for us, because he loves us.
Luke, where does the Bible say God seeks our forgiveness. God/Christ is perfect and cannot sin, therefore needs no ones forgiveness. God only seeks us to “take our cross (duty) and follow him”.
For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard.
Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. Romans 3:23-24
will i be able to go to the Lord if i break the comandments often without knowin at the time?
About Commandment #3:
I have a friend who says GD all the time and he says that it aint bad if you use God’s name in those ways. But, only Jesus’ name. And says that God isn’t a lord and that Jesus is, not God. He also says that he thinks God don’t care if people use God’s name like that. Now, i know this aint true. But, i can’t convince him that he’s wrong. What can i do to prove to him that he’s wrong about it all.
Go to our Bible Basics Section and scroll down to our article “The Doctrine of the Trinity.” In there will be verses that will show that all 3 Persons of the Godhead are all God and “Lord” Themselves.
Tommy:
God’s name is holy. And the reason why your friend doesn’t know that is probably that he doesn’t know how powerful he is. God answers when we call and his name carries power, for this reason we must not use it in vain. Also the bible says this:
Ephesians 4:29 NIV
Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.
I wanted to know why very few Christians do not keep the fourth commandment? It is carved in stone! Sunday is not the 7th day. The 7th day is from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. Is Sunday a tradition? Does this mean we are practicing lawlessness (without God’s teachings-i.e. Torah)? Is this why Jesus speaks against some of the churches in the Book of Revelation?
Something else puzzles me? It is Peter’s Vision when he stated he preceived God is no respector of persons (gentiles or Jewish). I have seen translations with italics that state something like, therefore he declared all foods clean. Footnotes state it is not in the oldest texts but words in italics are added. Once again, in Revelation, Jesus speaks about food sacrificed to idols in some of the churches. If foods are eaten that are said to be forbidden by the Creator, wouldn’t these be considered to be practicing idolatry. My thinking is that if God didn’t state it’s ok to do something, everything against His Word is idolatry.
Lastly, God lists feasts His children are to celebrate; He calls them His Feasts, not Jewish feasts. Why is Christianity not celebrating His feasts? I see in the NT Jesus is either going to a feast or returning from one. Please comment.
Dear Maria,
Sadly, I cannot find a response to your statement concerning Sabbath and foods. A great book to read is Sunday is not the Sabbath? by Arthur Bailey, D Div. Simply said most believers will not address this issue. I have found that our Saviour demonstrates that traditions are in oppositions to commands of our Creator. Religious traditions have created doctrines which created diversity which created presumption to obey those commands that denominations deem acceptable. Could it be that the greatest effective lie to believers was the acceptance that the Sabbath day can be changed? By whos’ authority? How would believers accept misleading dates of a wedding, birthday, anniversary party and show up on the wrong day? I do not believe our Creator is an instrument of confusion nor misleading but simple and straight forward in His commands. After all there are only ten of them. Do we have the authority to change the ones we do not like and self righteously believe that will be good enough? Number Chapter 15 tells us there is a different penalty to pay for intentional sins versus unintentional sins, however there is penalty for both. Shalom in the name of Yeshua, the Son of YHVH, our beloved Saviour. As for me I will submit that YHVH is the only authority and choose to obey His commands.
Shalom, Richard
You wrote your reply in 2011 and it is now 2017 so hopefully you got the answers you were searching for but maybe someone else will read your reply, and they have the same questions, so here is my reply to you.
Keeping Sabbath from sundown Friday to Saturday is a wonderful blessing that most Christians are missing. I encourage you to study Sabbath in the Bible in depth, and to begin keeping the Sabbath to get this blessing for yourself. Once you make the change, my guess is that you will never go back. I never have, and I never intend to for the rest of my living days!
As for Peter’s vision, three times God made it clear this was about not viewing Gentiles as unclean – that the good news was for them as well. It had nothing to do with food except unclean foods being a powerful way to get Peter’s attention as the very thought of eating unclean foods was so vile to Peter. Once He got Peter’s attention that way, God was able to effectively get Peter to see that Gentiles were not in the same category of unclean foods – that salvation and belief in and following in obedience after the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob was also available to Gentiles.
I encourage you to eat clean. I used to love bacon so I asked God to change my heart. Now I view it as an abomination which is what God says it is, and I literally cringe from eating it like I would if someone offered me dog turds to eat.
As for the feasts, they are WONDERFUL to keep, and they so enrich a person’s life. My whole year revolves around the feasts now. They are like stepping stones through the year. Each one is so rich and deep and blessed. And they will take you to a much deeper richness of scriptures since everything significant in scripture is tied to a feast, and everything significant yet to happen is also tied to a feast. Once I started keeping them, I have never missed another one. My only regret is having missed years and years of them in the past.
It is the Holy Spirit who is leading you to question these things. Keep listening to Him. He’s leading you into a very blessed life if you will consider His guidance and make these changes He is encouraging you to make.
Jamie, Catholics do not worship the saints or Mary. There is a very important distinction to be made between worship and honor. We honor the saints and Mary; we do not worship them. We also do not pray to them, but we pray to God through them. We ask them to intercede for us. We NEVER say Grant us this to saints or Mary. Anyone who truly understands catholic faith ALWAYS says Pray for us. The litany of the saints, for example, names several saints and asks them to pray for us. It does not pray to them. Think about it. The mother of a king often intercedes for the people. You see it all the time in history, and the old testament. People often get to the king through members of the king’s court or through their mothers. A great example of Mary interceding for the people is the Wedding at Cana (John 2:1-12). Jesus was not ready to perform a public miracle at that point. however, the hosts of the wedding ran out of wine. They asked Mary to ask Jesus to adress the issue. Jesus at first said no. When Mary pressed the issue, Jesus relented and performed the miracle (which replenished the wine). We hold Mary and the saints in places of honor, sort of as role models. We do not worship them.
It is important to continue dialougue between Catholics and Protestants so that we can work together to build the kingdom of God. How can we expect nonbelievers to believe if we are not united in our faith as brothers and sisters in Christ. That as how we see our relationship with protestants. We are brothers and sisters in Christ. I pray that you will see it the same way.
It tells us in the Bible the only mediator to our God the Father in heaven is threw Jesus Christ threw prayer our savior. As He instructs us in 1st Timothy chapter 2 verse 5 . NKJV. There is 1 God and 1 Mediator between God and man an
that’s Christ Jesus.
Having had Catholic, Protestant, and Jewish grandparents, I see more clearly than ever the importance of Christian unity between not only Catholics and Protestants but racial unity also. There seems to be Protestant churches that are completely or almost all “black” or “white.” Heavenly Father I pray that as a ProtestanI, for unity in our churches and to be more “catholic” (little c) in our worship and less segregated. The body of Christ must unite. In Jesus’ name, amen.
Go to our article, “The Basics of Eternal Salvation Through Jesus Christ”. This article is at the top of the Bible Basics Section. It will explain to you how to receive the gift of eternal salvation from Jesus so you can make it into heaven when you die and cross over.
Mike
Yes, God will forgive your sins.BUT,He will forgive you IF you are being honest and sincere in your heart. If you ask God to forgive you for, lets say, stealing, then he will forgive. If you repeatedly steal over and over and over KNOWING you are doing wrong, he will NOT forgive you. When you ask forgiveness, you are not JUST asking for him to forgive you. You are also admitting you have done wrong and that you will NOT do wrong again. I am dumbfounded by so many people who say its so hard to live by the rules. Its not really.
A thought~What if your stealing is something small as taking some folds of a little toilet paper from work because you only had money for food & gas till payday. You asked for forgiveness but had to take more a few days later. You ask for forgiveness again etc.. Toilet paper is a hard thing to really feel sorry for deep in the heart! I’d think God would still forgive you though. But Stealing is stealing right ? The value of the item could amount to very little but the bible doesn’t go into detail about value does it? It is hard to believe God would care the equally if you stole the elderly’s rent money vs some paper clips from work!
@Jen
So, someone confesses their sins, but if they will be forgiven only if they are being honest and sincere in their heart, that can only mean that God can read out mind. If our words hold value with God only if we back it up with honesty and sincerity, ultimately, our words are meaningless.
If the Ten Commandments were created by God, how did he not notice the redundancy therein?
Personally, I think people were just more naive and unassuming 5,000 years ago. Perfectly natural, albeit amazing, events took place in biblical times, but nothing that couldn’t occur in present day.
More than likely, iconic events in the Bible have happened numerous times since then. They just don’t seem as amazing as what’s described in the Bible because it was written by individuals who were just as naive and unassuming as everyone else; they had no grasp of what they were witnessing. In present day, we have a much better understanding of weather, nature, and physics.
God works through nature. Just because time passed doesn’t mean events that occured in Biblical times couldn’t still happen today, if they haven’t already.
Present day shows us that a lot of people still are naive and unassuming: they believe the word the Bible, “supernatural” occurrences and all. At the same time, they have a much better understanding of the world around them, so the events described in the Bible, as they occurred, would be far less awesome and magical to someone who understood what was taking place.
If you don’t follow one of the 10 commandments you can pray and ask for frogivness. I am a member of the church of jesus christ of latter day saints and I am very thankful for this church. I get most of the knowledge about our Christ from going to church every Sunday and reading the Bible and Book of Mormon. The church and my relatives and my savior and Heavenly father mean alot to me and I am Grateful that Our Savior Died for us so us humans can live on this earth today. All your passed relatives, heavenly father and our Christ will always be watching over you and they will help you when you are struggling and when you need help. Just always remember that they will always be watching over you and will be in your heart. <3
Hey do what if we follow most of them? Would God forgive is like t
He does or if we don’t follow all ten will we not go to Heaven but otherwise to hell?
I feel if we live by the10 commandments we will live life well. None of us ate without sin. But it is our place to recognize our sins and ask for forgiveness. Jesus us given us a second, third, fourth,…..chance by giving his life for ours.
Jesus was not born neither white or black. Why do people don’t understand this? There is a reason for this. Unite believers of all races. Love one another as you love yourself. What you want for your self, also want these things for your neighbors. One man has preached these things in my lifetime to better this Country. His name was Martin Luther King, Jr. He was not without sin as is no man, but he spoke for all men. Christ is Living! Give him a chance. Follow good examples. Joel Osteen try’s to bring enjoyment to us through the scriptures. Does he make money. Certainly does, but to reach out to so many takes effort and this world effort comes with cost. Let’s be kind to one another. Simple acts of kindness can spread a lot of joy. God Bless You!
In light of all this body of evidence along with Saint Paul’s apostolic writings a conclusion should unify all Christian thought in the fact that Jesus shed His Jewish blood for the Jew first.
Jesus taught, healed, and performed miracles for Jews, in order to covenant Jews into a new relationship with Himself as the second Adam thus beginning the restoration period of all things Jewish into a Christ centered Kingdom of God as it conquers the whole world through faith in Jesus.
Jesus as the greater Moses gave a higher requirement than the Ten Commandments “1. Love God 2. Love Your Neighbor AS Yourself” Jesus also requires Jews and Gentiles to believe that He is the “Bread Of Life.”
@ George-
Christians stole from Paganism, yet they murdered Pagans and people of other religions based on a book. This is a part of the bibles history, and in it I find many issues. The funniest being:
10 Commandments-
you shall not murder….yet it says you shall not permit a sorceress to live?
Witches were stoned to death by Christians and Catholics, is that not murder? For the record I am of no religion, I am simply me living each day with love, compassion, and the will to learn. Nor am I an Atheist. It seems to me if I were to worship someone or something, it would have to be perfect, NOT jealous! Also, The reason this world is so Hi-tech and advanced is because of science and engineering. Not because of the bible or it’s followers. Albert Einstein was not religious and yet his advances have already helped you in this life time. You should thank him! Your religion has slaughtered, started Wars, and has divided even yourself from each other. It has stolen from other religions only to back stab those it has tried to coven. Not sure if I could be apart of that. Not sure how religious people could force something on to others, when in fact it is not their job to judge. Trying to tech what you feel is right, ok. Love thy neighbor right? Well when you attack others for their views, that my friend is going against your own religion. I think that you yourself, needs an education on the history of the Bible and memorize what is in it before you speak. If you claim your unwavering devotion to something and have the nerve to preach it, you should follow all that makes it… otherwise it’s quit embarrassing to get called out with your foot in mouth.
Jen, I am really praying that you find the answers you are looking for. Any true Christian would feel the same when reading your plea. Your question “Why would he ask you to kill, when he himself says it’s a sin to do so?” Could you please give me the verses in the Bible where you are seeing this? Please include the version of the Bible you find it in. I truly want to study it. Your questions are real and AC and other true Christians are wanting to give you the truth. It is not my place to condem, I deserve Hell myself. I don’t fully understand how a thin single piece of wire can produce a 1080HD picture in my home, but I have faith that when I turn on my TV it will have a picture. I have faith that by my believing in Jesus Christ, that He is the one and only Son of God, and that He came to this cruel sin filled earth to live a perfect life only to be the perfect sacrifice by dying on that cross for you , AC, me, and whosoever believes in Him. Jesus rose from the grave and the tomb where he laid was empty. He died, was buried, and ressurected so we would not have to die in our sin. Therfore I am saved. I have the desire to turn from my sin and ask God to forgive me daily.
Ah more food for thought! I appreciate all your time on this AC, it is a blessing in disguise for me. 🙂
@ Greg- “You shall not permit a sorceress to live” Exodus 22:18 I hope I m reading it wrong, but I’ve ready the entire page so many times.
I just about fell out of my chair with the TV thing! So true! But you can physically see the little wire no less which makes it easier to believe that it is there. I think there is something I am doing wrong, if the God guy does exist and I am unable to see that he exists. How does one truly know? How does he show himself to people without being seen, heard, felt, tasted? What physical proven sign is there that I am not seeing? I feel like a child with her hands over her eyes waiting for a surprise. 🙂 Oi, the brain is rolling before bed.
Jen;
It’s been a long time since I have delved into a discussion like this so please bear with me.
God was setting the laws of the land and the penalty for each law that was broken. When an ox was stolen four must be repaid. Why he chose death for a sorceress I am not qualified to answer but I do know that it would have had to been proven in a court before Moses before a sorceress was killed.
Now a little about Moses, he was favored by God and was truly a holy man but even he fell short. Just think he led the people of Israel out of Egypt and through the desert for forty years then when they were close to the promised land he was allowed to see it but would not enter because he disobeyed God and struck a rock instead of speaking to it.
The people of Israel knew the law and if they decided to disobey they knew the penalty just as we as God’s children know the penalty for disobeying His commandments today.
One small note, I am on a computer that is connected to something called the World Wide Web, no wires. How the wireless signal works I don’t know or how every computer anywhere in the world can look at what I am writing to you but I believe they can by just typing in the address.
As far as something physical, there is nothing that is why it is called a belief one chapter for you – John 20:29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
I see the physical things every day because I believe.
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Romans 1:16-18
Hebrews 11:1-3
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Hebrews 11:1-3 KJV
Don’t change yourselves to be like the people of this world, but let God change you inside with a new way of thinking. Then you will be able to understand and accept what God wants for you. You will be able to know what is good and pleasing to him and what is perfect.
Romans 12:2 ERV
AMEN…
Jen about your question regarding (you shall not permit a sorceress to live)
You have to take in to account that in the Hebrew culture there was given a decree of law and within that law there was a statute of unlawful killing and lawful killing, like in the phrase thou shalt not kill, the word used for kill in Hebrew is (ratsach) this word means to unlawfully murder. This was the same word used when Cain killed his brother Abel, it was unlawful, done for selfish and jealous reasons. Now within the law to lawfully kill was permitted like the word in Hebrew for capitol punishment was (muwth). The reason that it was given to them that they could lawfully kill was so that unlawfullness would not spread across the land and create a bad society.
Example: If you have a bag full of apples and 1 apple goes bad, you must remove the 1 bad apple or else all the good apples will soon go bad along with the bad one. (evil is contagious, it spreads)
so it was permitted in certain instances to kill for that reason, just to keep a good society.
As far as a witch goes it is also a little different than what we believe today, In today’s standards anyone who practices magic is considered to be a witch, back in the old day it was not so. Many people practiced magic some of Gods most rightous men did. but a witch to them was one who practiced magic of a dark nature and it was not gotten from God. There is light and dark in the world God is the Light and satan is the dark, a child of God is not permitted to do anything by the power of satan that was a very unlawful thing, an abomination to the Lord, total opposite of him so for that reason it was permitted to kill a witch, in our day we would call it a devil worshiper, a very evil doer. Also in the Bible sometimes God is saying something and sometimes it is the opinion of the man who is speaking, because there were many instances that some men in the bible commited murder and they thought they were in the right but they were not and they were punished for it by God. Also I will say that when Christ came in his grace he showed men that everyone has sin John 8:7 He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone. Me personally I would not commit murder for the simple fact that I just have it in my heart that we should not take a life but lets say a murderer breaks into my home and tries to murder my child, I will definately defend and if it lead to that persons death it would be permitted by God, that type of murder. because that person would have come to me to do evil and justly I could remove the evil from before me in that situation. By the time Christ came everyone had done some evil in some way or another so everyone would be murdered if the standard of the law was observerd so from then we were to live under his grace and love, his ultimate sacrifice for us that we may repent and be saved through him. His message to us was clear, turn the other cheek, and cast the first stone if you are guiltless, there is no one here who is perfect so no one should kill anyone anymore for the reason of punishment.
(Matt. 10:13). We are not to rail against or retaliate against our enemies and persecutors but rather bless them and pray for them (Matt. 5, Rom. 12:14). We are to rebuke and reprove the works of darkness, but we are to do violence to no one.
Matthew 13:24-30, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Matthew 13:36-43, He that sowed the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.”
We are not to murder witches or even satan worshipers today God will send his angels to do the reaping in the end and he will have his vengance for their evil deeds. Also many who say they are Christians are not just as Christ said to the Jews in the past.
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own for he is a liar, and the father of it.
John 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
Christ would say this same thing to many who call themselves Christians today. And I would imagine if you see one who commits murder and proclaims to be Christian, he is a liar and one of the wicked ones.
judge by the fruit no matter who they proclaim to be There are many false Christians in the world but it does not make Christ false.
Anyway I hope this helps. God Bless
Jesus did not come to destroy the law but uphold the law. Not one jot or tittle. Christians are held to an even higher standard than the law. We are held to perfection. It is not possible because of our sinfulness but that is our measuring stick. Christ is our High Priest that intercedes and prays for us.
Without the law we would not see our need for a Savior, Messiah, Christ.
You Can believe, in that lie that its ok to sin I am not weak in my mind it hard sometimes to hurt the ones i love with the truth, or should i say I am not living in fear of what the truth will hurt them. the lie hurts so much more.
Jesus did not come to destroy the law but uphold the law. Not one jot or tittle. Christians are held to an even higher standard than the law. We are held to perfection. It is not possible because of our sinfulness but that is our measuring stick. Christ is our High Priest that intercedes and prays for us.
Without the law we would not see our need for a Savior, Messiah, Christ. Great point still I will have to ask you do you sin do u find it hard to follow
the lord gave us free will use it every day its an up hill battle or do u fight on the way down cause u find it’s easier just to sin then ask the false god for mercy the lord know its hard yet he feels we a strong to follow the laws so start today with the first law
Hi everyone. I’ve been reading these posts for quite a while, and I thought of what has been said about God. So, I will tell you first, I’m a practicing Catholic. I’m a believer in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Holy Spirit, and Our Heavenly Father in trinity as One God. I’m now 47, and I’ve been doing much reading of the Bible, and beyond the inspired Word (i.e.Book of Jasher) and I believe in the first church founded by Christ – the Catholic church. I believe in the practice of Mass, but I don’t necessarily believe in all of the pagan traditions that have influenced the church thereafter, nor the Pope’s authority to change anything in the Law. I believe that recognizing Christ, is essential. Jesus breaks bread at The Last Supper with His disciples, and with the two disciples of Emmaus. As you know, Jesus shared His last meal announcing the new and everlasting covenant. Ater His death, He came to the Emmaus disciples in disguise, inquiring of the events in Jeruselum. It wasn’t until Christ broke bread with them, did they recognize Him. The disciples said weren’t our hearts ablaze in Christ!!? It is the breaking of bread, shedding of blood, which Jesus asks us to do in memory of Him. For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes.
1 Corinthians 11:23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: On the night when He was betrayed, the Lord Jesus took bread, gave thanks, broke it, and said,“This is My body, which is for you. Do this in remembrance of Me.” So a man should examine himself; in this way he should eat the bread and drink from the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes.
Mark 14:22 As they were eating, He took bread, blessed and broke it, gave it to them, and said, “Take it; this is My body.” Then He took a cup, and after giving thanks, He gave it to them, and so they all drank from it. He said to them, “This is My blood that establishes the covenant;
Now, I feel confident about this practice, but lately I’m having difficulty with the Sabbath. I’ve been reading text regarding this commandment, and I tell you it’s been a battle trying to dicipher the truth, so I’ve asked God for some discernment on this. I’ve read about Constantine in 321A.D. changing the day of worship to Sunday, as a result of the major influence of the sun worshipers at that time. And, it made sense to me the Catholic church changed the day to accommodate these people. Yet, I’ve been reading text regarding the early chuch i.e. 100A.D. where the members of the church changed the day to Sunday as a result of Christ’s resurrection being early Sunday morning, which they refer to as the Lord’s Day. So, I’ve only recently asked God to help me to discern this, and there are many things to consider, but I have to say that I am leaning towards attending church on Saturday evenings.
If anyone has some insight on this Commandment, I will surely consider it. Thanks everyone for reading my comments on the Eucharist, and the 4th Commandment.
I am also I Catholic and I believe as you do in what you say. I advise you to keep the Sabbath Holy. Jesus said:
John 14:15 If you love me you will keep my commandments.
Keeping the Sabbath holy means you cannot work or cause others to work. You cannot go shopping (servants). Keep in mind Matthew 12:12 Now a man is far more important than a sheep, so it follows that it is permitted on the Sabbath day to do good. So you can do volunteer work, go to Mass and such, but you cannot serve yourself. I do believe if you must work, you should go straight there and then go straight home (or to Church) and ask for forgiveness for keeping a tradition of man that you cannot control and ask for mercy. Otherwise, you place man before God.
And
Matthew 5:19 Therefore, anyone who infringes even one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be considered the least in the kingdom of Heaven; but the person who keeps them and teaches them will be considered great in the kingdom of Heaven.
Jesus does speak of the other 9 commandments without quoting them that you must keep to be saved. So if you do go to heaven you would be the least if you do not keep this commandment.
Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and ointments. And on the Sabbath day they rested, as the Law required. [This was after the new covenant.]
Jesus is tugging at your heart FamousWarrior.
I keep God’s commandments and not the traditions of the Church. I don’t know why with the pedifiles and such in the Catholic Church why people do not understand Satan is leading many astray in an attempt to destroy the only Church founded by Christ. I will not pray before a Crucifix, a statue or any such thing. I do believe in the breaking of bread, shedding of blood, which Jesus asks us to do in memory of Him and I believe in the miracle on the alter of the cross.
Jesus did not say the Catholic Church is the way to the Father. But I believe believe in the miracle on the alter of the cross strong enough to stay in the Church. I also believe in the basic tentants of faith. Some Catholic’s profess you need Mary’s mercy to be saved and Satan hates the rosery most of all. What is Jesus, Mary and Joseph save souls? I will not say that. Mary is blessed but she cannot save anyone. John 5:12 Whoever has the Son has life, and whoever has not the Son of God has not life.
The Catholic Church is not perfect or we would already be in heaven. Reject the tradations of men. Read the Bible and ask Jesus to guide you to God the Father. Jesus is the way, the true and the life. There is no other way to God the Father except through Him.
The only reason at all I was able to answer this at all was by the grace of God for without God’s grace, I can do nothing but evil. (I know this for a fact). All Power and Glory to God the Most High.
God bless you.
Our first duty is to love God and Jesus. But we can honor others such as Saints, for the holy work they did and how they suffered for God while on this earth. This is not taking graven images before God. Moses gave us the Ten Commandments when he was talking to the Jews about their making a ‘calf’ to worship as their God. There is a huge difference.
Many people use things such as Rosaries to bring them closer to God. I don’t think this is putting something else before God.
Hi Christine
God gave Moses the Ten Commandments and He knows everything. In the Old Testament, you will find the Jews worshipped much more than a golden calf. For example, 1 Kings 11:5 Solomon became a follower of Astarte, the goddess of the Sidonians, and of Milcom, the Ammonite abomination. God knew this would happen before He gave Moses the commandments.
Does the Bible tell us to honor others such as Saints, for the holy work they did and how they suffered for God while on this earth? [If so, please let me know.]
Would it not be better to pray to God to become closer to God? 1 Timothy 2:5
I know this is not easy which is why Jesus said: Matthew 7:13 7:14
I am not asking you to question your faith in light of the fact you said “Our first duty is to love God”. That is why I say to you ask Jesus to guide you to God the Father. No one else can save you. Jesus is the way, the true and the life. There is no other way to God the Father except through Him.
Blessed be the most holy Name of Jesus without end. God bless you and everyone you care for.
So what exactly does it mean “you shall not murder” Does that mean in every single circumstance, no matter what? Does that mean in self-defense, it is not ok to kill another person? Does that mean animals? Does that mean that in battle or war, no one can kill anyone else? If not, then where does it explain that murder is ok or justified in certain circumstances? Are these the only sins? What about inflicting pain and torturing a person? So apparently it’s more important not to “covet thy neighbor’s” stuff than it is to torture a living human being.
@Aly Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.
Exodus 23:7 Keep far from a false charge, and do not kill the innocent and righteous, for I will not acquit the wicked.
Proverbs 12:10 Whoever is righteous has regard for the life of his beast, but the mercy of the wicked is cruel.
Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Philippians 1:29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake
Proverbs 19:29 Condemnation is ready for scoffers, and beating for the backs of fools.
nice to know that women are classed along with the rest of a man’s “property”…i’m sorry, no matter which way i slice it, i just can’t be ok with that. doesn’t sit right.
Commandments 1 and 2 are potential problems for christians, which is another religion entirely when viewed from the origin of these commandants, judaism.
1. You shall have no other gods before me.
– Does this include jesus, who is not THE god, but the son of a god (allegedly). Keep in mind that these commandments were not ever amended to incorporate the jesus character and should thus be taken very literally. –
2. You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.
– (Now THAT is a problem for an entire cult that worships plastic, metal and wooden crosses as well as a LIKENESS of a skinny guy stuck to them. I suppose as long as it isn’t uniquely carved, then all is swell. –
For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God – (I certainly hope so) -, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
– Only a very cruel alien being needs to show mercy. Why do people worship this nonsense? –
Brooke: There is no recorded instance where Jesus disgraces, belittles, reproaches, or stereotypes a woman. The examples of the manner of Jesus are instructive for inferring his attitudes toward women and show repeatedly how he liberated and affirmed women.
p.s.Romans 14:23 But he that discerneth, if he eat, is condemned; because not of faith. For all that is not of faith is sin.
I have a question? Do you only life as a christian through the 10 commandments or does it require the christian to live about what the bible says also?
Rush LIED about what Sandra Fluke said, he broke one of The Ten Commandments. He then went on to say vile things about Ms. Fluke and then he suggested that she make sex tapes. And the Conservatives are convinced they should be defending him?
If the conservatives weren’t a bunch of hypocritical women haters they would be condemning him. There is absolutely no justification for Rush’s crude remarks concerning Ms. Fluke
Roman Catholics worship their idols and saints. But the first commandment states clear that we should not have any other God than Our Almighty God. Is there a proof in the Holy Bible that we necessary need to worship those idols and saints only made by man? Thank you…
Response to #44-I am well aware that we can not earn our salvation. I never said otherwise. But 9 commandments????? Jesus said not to think he came to abolish the Law and not the smallest letter or stroke in the Law (Teaching) would pass fro the Law until all was fulfilled. I am guessing as I look out my window we are not in the Millenium Kingdom yet-Therefore, the 4th commandment is in effect because you can not quote any scripture that says it’s no longer in effect. If you check the early church fathers writingd you will see it was changed to Sunday – a man made tradition. I’d like to point out to you also that Greek uses only one word for law. It can not differentiate between Oral Law (man made tradition) or Torah Law (from the mouth of God. A good example of this is when Jesus’s diciples were criticized for eating with unwashed hands.. this is an example of a rule that doesn’t appear in the Law. You must understand by studying the OT which law is being spoken of in the NT.
Hi Maria – I agree not keeping the 4th commandment is a man made tradition. But this is in the NT as well. An example:
John 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.
Luke 23:56 And returning, they prepared spices and ointments; and on the sabbath day they rested, according to the commandment.
Jesus did not tell anyone not to keep the 4th commandment. They understood this.
The new covenant did away with the the statutes and the judgments but not the commandments. Examples – we no longer stone people for adultery as Jesus said let him who is without sin cast the first stone; washing of hands as you mentioned,etc., for the Pharisees and Sadducees corrupted the statutes and the judgments.
We are only saved by faith in Jesus Christ. We cannot save ourselves. Man is corrupt and they corrupted this law. I know we agree. They changed the meaning of the 4th commandmentand called it the Lords day. Know what I believe? If you try to keep the commandments, every day is the Lords day. I try to keep the Sabbath day holy as commanded by God because that is His day. I do not question God’s commandments which are the law as Jesus said if you love me…
I will not condemn or judge another but spread God’s word. Praise God for His gift of grace for it only by His grace we care at all.
I agree Maria :o)
In addition, I invite any and all to investigate (online) what the weekly names mean, this will more than likely lead you to expand your search to other important topics on the evolution of the Christian Church. What you are more than likely to learn is that Greek and Egyptian culture has had a huge influence on present day religous norms and morays, where pre-Messianic (years of Y’Shua – Jesus and before) show a clear contrast to today’s church teachings, this in tone and content, where cultural influences where brought into that core belief system; one can learn more on this by searching for the Counsel of Niacea – 325AD, where 400 bishops came together by order of Constantine to unite religious thought of the day, even adding that of Trinity. Most do not know this but non-trinitarian belief existed before trinitarian belief and though trinitarian belief became more and more common, just one of varied other changes that came out of the Counsel of Niacea. Another important fact is how the Tetragrammaton (YHWH – God’s Abbreviated name) was replaced at the counsel of Niacea some 7000 times by the word lord (this also occured in Masoretic text [Adonai] – however the Dead Sea scrolls which are widely accepted as the most complete record of scripture show the Tetragrammaton YHWH), where the mindset of the day would change the intended message in scripture. According to documented historical writings that corroborate how Y’Shua (Jesus) walked and talked (meaning that of how non-elite Jewish culture lived),post Niacean doctrine flies in the face of the original doctrine on Biblical thought and teaching. History proves the church founders got away with it for it meant certain death not to accept it, and therein the unfortunate highjacking of Christianity (originally “the Way”). That said, the Bible’s narrative is such (God-Inspired) that even with these alterations it continues to feed all 38000 worldwide fractions of Christianity with one central teaching that culminates with the God-given ability in man to choose for light versus darkness, indeed eternal salvation; the path clearly demonstrated by Y’Shua, the obedient Son, who says to walk as He and not man. History proves that post messianic teachings, namely certain words that have been omitted from the Bible, and other things such as man made holidays that are all based on non messianic customs (namely pagan holidays) are everything but Holy (set apart from man), changes that would also add a trinitarian God concept that stems back to Egyptian and Greek deity systems. When I researched these things I had to come to the conclusion that I owed it to myself to continue to seek that I can find; more truth that is. These things can be researched online, please do not take my word for it, I am but a man that only wants to tread where our Messiah would have. Much Love to All.
Doesn’t anyone see anything strange about number 2 on this list? It states “For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God,”. Jealous? God jealous? This is rather comical. That is a human trait, or the trait of someone else, perhaps an ET. A divine being does not have these low level human emotions like jealousy or hate. Only psychopathic individuals carry out mass murder, not divine beings (think about the Noah story), least of which the most divine being of all. It’s time to engage the brain and look at these things from an adult point of view. There are things in the Bible that even children question, and rightfully so.
Jealousy is about faithfulness. God put the commandments in human terms. God does not think like mankind.
God’s purpose in the flood was not to destroy people, but to destroy wickedness and sin. It is an example for everyone who will not repent.
God makes it known you will be punished. God’s gift is grace but He will not forced it upon you because He does love everyone. He gave everyone free to chose their own reward or punishment. Punishment does not mean you are not loved. Punishment is a consequence of what you choose to do.
Why do you feel compelled to make such posts? You will not change the mind of a believer just like I cannot change your mind because you are blind to the truth. You believe and preach lies. Who are you serving?
The 1st Commandment ‘You shall have no other gods before me’..isn’t that clearly states that we should only pray to the One and Only God…the same God Jesus himself pray to? Jesus himself confirmed this when he said ‘…. I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ John 20:17
The 2nd Commandment ‘You shall not make for yourself any carved image…you shall not bow down to them nor serve them…’ so why do Christians still bow and pray to these carved images of Jesus/cross in churches and homes when God clearly forbid this ?
To: Seeking Truth
This is only my “learned” opinion, and you can think about it. I think that Christians who bow down to the carved images and icons do it out of 2 reasons:
1. It was introduced in the church probably to make the conversion easier for pagans. Pagans knew only man-made god-statues and it was probably hard for them to believe in something they could not see or touch, e.g. statues of Jesus (“god”), Mary (goddess), and icons and statues of saints (other gods and goddesses). Ditto with many holidays: All Saint’s Day, Easter (not Passover), Christmas, etc. Almost all the holidays, and Sunday itself, have pagan roots that have been “converted” to Christianity.
2. The other reason is that some people simply have no faith in the unseen and it is sad to say so for those who call themselves “Christian”.
I agree,
If I could add, when Israel crossed the Jordan Yoheshua (Joshua) was suppose to not allow them to mingle with other nations, yet they did, the idea was to keep them away from the very same pagan idol worshiping you refer to that is seen in sooooo many so churches today. Some would argue, as I use to, that I can carry any image (a representation) of my God, but no different to me, until they understand that the second commandment of 10 (the only word ever etched in stone by YHWH) clearly states that we are not to make any carved image in heaven or elsewhere. When I realized that YHWH lives in heaven, that immediately made me realize He meant not to make an image of Him either. It made sense after that, for if not by now the image of buddah would be called YHWH (man’s folly). The reality is that from the prevailing 2 centuries after the resurrection of Y’Shua, and the passing of the appostles, the followers of Y’shua would do no different than what we see today. I recommend you run a search on the “Councel of Niacea” as an extra biblical example of what God’s people repeatedly fell to from more than 1500 years prior to our Messiah into modernity. It was there that 400 bishops, more than half of which had received teachings in cultures that believe in the concept of trinity (cultures like the Egyptian and Greek who believed in multi-deities as one God)formed the foundation for a trinitarian god – and as you said, the integration of pagan holidays into christianity. Another historical reality is that of the term supersessionism. Unfortunately, after Martin Luther’s move away from the catholic church, existing man made ommissions (except maybe that of idols in churches), all of which are now proven as add-ons to old testament (Tanahk or better stated the First Writings) and new testament (or the Second Writings) where not corrected. This then lead to a wide spread belief that the Second Writings (new testament) replaces the First Writings (old testament). I do agree that in time YHWH would add or take new instructions, but after years of dedicated studies to scripture no where does it say that the old is out and the new is in – regardless of tweaking here and there. That said He can do that, but man, he is told not to!!! Example… man took out YHWH or Elohim and replaced it with the term Lord (look up the definition for the word baal – God’s number one enemy) in the First Writings, this in order that the concept of trinity (i can’t think of any other reason) would make more sense. In other words, the Lord in the old is now superseded (replaced even) with the Lord in the new, this flying in the face of Y’Shua who consistently reminds us that he and the Father are two distinct persons working as one and not one working as three. Our glorious Messiah always spoke to his Dad folks, not to himself. The assumption that the bible teaches trinity was derived from pagan religion. Just think, there is irrefutable proof now that the Tetragrammaton (Elohim’s Acronym) has been replaced (a man made thing) in the First Writings close to 7000 times with the word Lord and God.
I recommend those that research this material to do so from non-religious (CREDIBLE online) sources. I LIKE WIKIPEDIA, BUT ALWAYS SEEK UPTO 3 CREDIBLE SOURCES (THROUGH SEARCH ENGINES) BEFORE REREADING THE TEXT IN SCRIPTURE (ALSO AT TIMES COMPARING WITH DIFFERENT BIBLES)… BIBLE.COM ALLOWS ANYONE TO COMPARE BIBLE PASSAGES, AS MANY AS 15 (OR S0) BIBLES, SIMULTANEOUSLY.
My personal voyage began just over 4 years ago, BUT BEFORE DOING THE RESEARCH I MADE SURE TO FALL IN LOVE WITH SCRIPTURE ALL OVER AGAIN, IMAGINE, A STORY OF THE INTERACTION BETWEEN OUR HEAVENLY FATHER AND US.
Shalom (peace be with you) in Y’Shua (Jesus).
At the end of the day, everything’s Questionable! If you believe you believe, If you don’t.. well you don’t. It’s as simple as that, Typing huge Paragraphs isn’t going to change anyone’s Opinion. Because that’s all this is, everyone’s entitled to one. Jeeze!
Thanks, Pricilla and Rams for your opinions.
The fact is God’s Laws/Commandments are very straightforward. There is no ambiguity or doubtfulness about what God is trying to command…its that straightforward. ‘You shall have no other gods before me’ means exactly just that…and the fact that this is the very 1st Commandment show the importance and how serious God is about this Commandment.
So, do the Christians in their belief that Jesus is God, Son of God, Holy Spirit is God and have carved images of Jesus/Cross as a focal reference in their prayers contravene the 1st and 2nd Commandments ? Everyone will have their own opinion on this but only the One and Only God knows.
For Rams:
I agree. NT did not replace OT (though there are denominations that never open the OT or teach from it). Yeshua (Jesus) quoted it all the time, even concerning himself (Luke 24:27). NT did not exist in the first few centuries as we know it today. So, if it was good for Him, it should be good for us, too.
Paul also wrote that “ALL scripture is God-breathed …” – 2 Timothy 3:16. He meant the OT because, as I mentioned above, there was no NT at the time.
In Acts 17: 11 it calls the Bereans as more noble than those in another city because they searched the SCRIPTURES daily – i.e. the only scriptures at that time, the OT.
OT is all that the Christians had to refer to in the beginning. NT does not exclude the OT – it continues the story of God and his relationship with the humanity.
I saw a reference in earlier comments about the Trinity and I suppose it was from you, as is the above comment. It IS a hard subject to understand. What you mentioned is interesting. Can you please tell me what you mean regarding the Trinity and give me some references? Toda and Shalom.
Hello Seeking Truth,
Why would a true believer need a focal point for prayer? Shouldn’t God be worshipped in Truth and SPIRIT? Spirit is unseen – both God’s and our.
Among other art hanging on my walls, I have icons and other religious art from OT and NT, and paintings of nature scenes that include animals – but that is all it is: ART – and only ART. I do not stand before all these pictures or look at them when I pray.
(Please don’t think that I am trying to argue with you – I am just carrying the subject a little further on.)
Shabbat Shalom,
Hi Priscila, it is a pretty long study, but let’s give it a shot:o) I started this study about 4 years ago… I googled the word Trinity and from there I followed what I recognized as credible unbiased sources :o).
As to how the council of Nicaea would choose to apply the Trinitarian concept to scripture? Here is an excerpt from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea
“One of the projects undertaken by the Council was the creation of a Creed, a declaration and summary of the Christian faith. Several creeds were already in existence; many creeds were acceptable to the members of the council, including Arius. From earliest times, various creeds served as a means of identification for Christians, as a means of inclusion and recognition, especially at baptism.”
In moving forward you should know that I have spent countless hours researching, and though for some that is overkill, for me it has been a pleasure. My point? Be prepared for readings need to be done. A good place to start is with Constantine, who a few years before the counsel, by his own account to others, had seen a vision or dream of a cross over what would become Constantinople, supposedly he was assured that if he adopted this symbol he would win the battle against the roman empire, and he did. The story is based on happenstance, were if one reads up on it one will more than likely come to the conclusion that he was an astute politician, in as much, he knew if he won he would have to unite a nation that was in disarray. As it turns out, regardless of extreme persecution, the Christian movement had spread like wildfire throughout the land, where Constantine seems to have recognized that in order to have cohesion in his new empire he would have to unite a very diversified group called Christians. Eusebius of Cesarea (A Trinitarian) and Arius of Lybia where two of three predominant views on Godhead. The third view fell in the middle of Trinitarian and NonTrinitarian concepts. Ultimately, by vote, the Trinitarian view was adopted.
It has taken me more than 4 years of earnst study on the matter, where at the outset all I keep coming back to is Biblical evidence, which to me as a believer, is the most important evidence of all. That said, one should never forget we are all, Trinitarian or NonTrinitarian believers of the same Heavenly Father, where the narrative is always going to bring us right back to that of Y’Shua (Jesus) and his sacrifice, that which defines the true Christian voyage, that of his example, that which he called us to follow, that of the obedient son, that of the only begotten son of YHVH, that of the lamb: in my humble opinon, there can be no better reward – sacrifice included.
From this link, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea , you will be able to click on others to get a better idea of what the players were, where they came from (what were the cultural influences) and most importantly, what was the history that ultimately defined more than 38000 worldwide Judeo-Christian fractions – that today make up one body, the body of Messiach Y’Shua :o) Shalom :o)
Pricilla,
Thats exactly my point..God should be worshipped in Truth and SPIRIT. Its ok to have a focal point as a reference when you pray as long as you don’t pray to that focal point (which is against Commandment #1). For example, Muslims around the world pray towards the Kaaba in Mecca as a directional reference point only…they are NOT praying to the Black Box as most non-Muslims believe. By having a directional focal point, the Muslims avoid praying in all directions. This is beautiful when you think about it as no matter where the Muslims are in the world, you will find them praying in the same direction.
To Seeking Truth;
I agree with you that our Creator cares we do not break His commandments… and as you said, he knows if we do or don’t; that said the commandments are given, and as you said, for what they are worth; law. Y’Shua also added that if we follow him in truth then we are not under law. As I understand this teaching, law defines sin, meaning if we sin we are then under law because the law itself defines the sin. I have heard many argue we are no longer under law (an NT approach) and others that we are held to all laws, including the regulations in Torah (an OT approach). I understand it this way… if we sin then we are under law; an added covenant that does not take away from the first. Shalom.
Seeking Truth,
I now understand what you wanted to say. I agree. Like Daniel openinig the windows toward Jerusalem and praying in that direction 3 times a day. Yes, beautiful.
Pricilla,
Glad you understood what I’m trying to say. At the end of the day, we all pray to the same God, the same Creator of the Heavens and Earth. But first you must believe in the One and Only God as stated in the 1st Commandment which is the focal teaching of all the Prophets/Messengers. If you believe this, then your actions should also support this believe…does the concept of Trinity support this very 1st Commandment? Only the One and Only God knows. A catholic christian friend once told me ‘Think of Trinity as 3 men travelling in 1 same car..all arrive at the same time as 1 (together) but there are 3 of them’. I told him ‘No, you show me the same 1 man arrive in 3 cars at the same time, then you would have explained the concept of Trinity’. We had a good laugh and today he’s still my good friend despite our different views.
Seeking Truth,
As you see, when something is explained well, I finally get it.
Thank you for your explanation regarding the Trinity. I liked the conversation you had with your friend. But I still have a problem with understanding the Trinity and how it all works, or how it should work – maybe I will get it in the end. If the Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit are not GOD, then who/what?
Thank you.
Hi Pricilla,
Sorry, I understood you wanted to know how Trinity was adopted:
I see the Godhead as plural made up of different parts, each governed by the Head (Eloi)and the body (him), Y’Shua the right hand of the Father, the angels, and others together called Elohim (the Creator). I believe there is more scripture that places Y’Shua at the right hand of the father than the trinity allows for. As such I had to come to the conclusion that Y’Shua is the governing part of a governing body that we call God (Elohim), the Father as the Head.
Elohim is plural (us):
Darby. Genesis 1:26
(And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over the whole earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth on the earth.)
Genesis 1:25-27 (in Context) Genesis 1 (Whole Chapter)
NKJV. Genesis 3:22 (And the LORD [Adonai] God [Elohim] said, “Behold, the man has become as one of Us [NOTE THE WORD USED HERE “US”], to know good and evil. And now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live for ever”–.)
NKJV. Genesis (3:24 He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the (Z)cherubim [PARTS OF ELOHIM?] and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.)
Y’Shua is known for making hundreds of mentions to the Father as his Head in Heaven, ie:
Darby: Matthew 7:21
Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but he that does the will of my Father who is in the heavens.
Darby. Matthew 26:39
And going forward a little he fell upon his face, praying and saying, My Father, if it be possible let this cup pass from me; but not as *I* will, but as *thou* [wilt].
where he makes few comments such as “I and the Father are one”.
In Mat 1:1 Mathew tells us that Y’Shua existed in the beginning and was a God (Elohim) and was with God (Elohim) the Father. Throughout we also read the angels taking a participatory role in works. Even more so we know scripture tells us that God (Elohim) is plural, adding, Y’Shua is the Fathers right hand in everything; his angels and all else under Y’Shua and the Fathers rule :o)
It also tells us that we are made in the likeness and image of our creator, and so too are angels, with freedom to choose, as so is Y’Shua, the obedient son.
Scripture tells us YHWH, which stands for “he who will do as He says”, or “He who does as He says”, also the “I AM”, is shown in scripture as the Head of Elohim, scripture that denotes a plural government as Elohim. I liken it to a company with a CEO, the company creates something, but if you want to see the CEO you have to go through the President, in this case Y’Shua. Many work for a company.
I know this is a hot button topic, though I don’t understand why, trinity or not, we are all talking about the same Elohim (God). That said, I do believe we who love and follow Y’Shua, are also following and loving the Father, and as Y’Shua (Jesus) said:
John 10:30
I and the Father are one.
And finally,
Mark 15:34
34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
I believe Y’Shua and the Father are as one but are not one. I believe Y’Shua is the Fathers’ right hand, in authority over the rest of the body, including us :o)
Hope I made sense, Shalom, in Y’Shua, Amein.
Pricilla,
If you believe in the 1st Commandment, then the question ‘If the Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit are not GOD, then who/what?’ should not even be asked. God is One and Only, Jesus is Jesus and Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit. The concept of Trinity is a much later add-on to satisfy this very 1st Commandment..if you are taught to pray to Jesus and if Jesus is not God, then the 1st Commandment is breached so the concept of Trinity is born to fulfill the 1st Commandment. When Jesus said ‘I and the Father are one’ John 10:30, he meant that he’s aligned to God’s commands and now he’s preaching the same commands/teachings to the people. In John 10:32, Jesus said, ‘I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these are you going to stone me?’
I myself used this term a lot when I was an assistant coach for a local football team. When discussing strategies, I used to say to the team ‘No need to ask the Head Coach as I and him are one’. Obviously I do not mean that I and the Head Coach are the same person but it simply means that the Head Coach have run thru the strategies with me and I am just cascading the same information to the team. Even if the team ask the Head Coach, they will get the same information.
Seeking Truth,
Sorry to bother you again. I have 2 more questions for clarification:
1. Thomas, when he saw the resurrected Jesus, said “my Lord and my God”. So, it seems that he thought of Jesus as God – or am I wrong?
2. John 14:13 -14 Jesus said “Whatever you ask in my name I will do it” and “You may ask ME for anything in my name, and I will do it.” Asking is a form of praying. So, should we pray to Jesus or no?
Thank you.
Pricilla, I have the same questions. Before I became a Christian I always just prayed to “God” (creator of the universe, heaven & earth). Now we are told Jesus is our Lord & savior. He’s supposed to be everything to us. Honestly & may God forgive me if I am mistaken but I have a very tough time when others say Jesus is God! It makes no sense to me at all because during his time on earth he was always praying to God, the Father! And he said he was the way to the Father. That implies the Father would be higher than him or he wouldn’t be praying to him for anything if he were God! It feels awkward to believe Jesus IS God when clearly the bible tells us we have our Father God. Jesus was the son-not the Father! I pray for clarity & truth about this. Until then I will continue to address my prayers to God & I end them by saying, “In Jesus name I pray”. Just feels like something to say to cover all bases & that kinda waters down prayers for me. When I pray I used to think of it as a very sacred private intimate moment. Now I feel like I’m almost praying to two instead of one which makes it much less intimate. Sometimes I think perhaps I should Name the whole trinity when I pray to make sure I’m not missing anyone! Can someone please shed light & truth on this topic!? PLEASE!!!
Pricilla,
Its really not for me to say who we should pray to. I can only review the scriptures like the OT, NT, Quran…and try to make sense based on the time and the society these scriptures are written and revealed to the Messengers.
This is easily said than done as in studying these scriptures, one must be able to differentiate what are God’s words/God’s inpired words from man’s add-on words. The 10 Commandments is a good source for cross reference…if you believe Jesus is God and thus satisfy the 1st Commandment, then to you it will make sense to pray to Jesus.
To answer your 1st question, Thomas said ‘My Lord, my God’ John 20:28. This is a shocked response when he saw Jesus whom he thought was dead. ‘My Lord’ is the highest designated title given to someone of a honourable status (like Jesus). Example, in the medieval times, Kings are often referred to ‘my Lord’. ‘My God’ is a common shocked or surprise response. Example, you bumped into a childhood friend whom you have not met for the last 20 years and your response will likely be ‘Oh my God ! Its really you!’
To your 2nd question : John 14:13 -14 Jesus said “Whatever you ask in my name I will do it” and “You may ask ME for anything in my name, and I will do it.” Yes, but you must remember that this is during the times of Jesus where the people relate more to Jesus than the unseen God Himself and the people are not used to be asking God directly and thus Jesus is acting like a representative for the people who ask in his name. Jesus also knew that whatever he did, he did it with God’s permission. This is clear when Jesus said “I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.” John 5:31
Hi Rams,
I had to read your last comment a few times and think in between, and all I can say is that the subject is very confusing to me. You can also see my questions and comments to Seeking Truth.
I was taught that Jesus is God and even though it was hard for me to understand that, I accepted it because I was told that some things just can’t be explained in this lifetime – like the Trinity – and that we should accept it by faith.
On the other hand, Jesus was not CREATED, He was BEGOTTEN by God the Father, and John calling Him the WORD of GOD that was with GOD from the beginning, and WAS God – that seems to me that He is a part of God, just like the Spirit of God is part of God – that Jesus went out from God just like the Holy Spirit goes out from God.
And yet, Jesus Himself prayed to God – and that is what is not clear to me, if he is part of God.
As I said, this is very confusing to me. All I know, that if not for me turning to Jesus a long time ago, I would have been dead. Turning to Him gave me a new chance at life, and I cannot exist without Him. I was scared to death of God, but at that time Jesus reconciled me to God, and the fear has not come back to haunt me again.
Thank you for all the information and your efforts. I guess I will still have to dig and study the subject.
Shalom in Yeshua.
Seeking Truth,
I want to thank you for all the information – I think I will still have to travel on this journey in order to make sense of everything.
I was just wondering that if God did not oversee the writing and editing of the Bible – and people, who copied the Bible through the centuries, inserted their own “wisdom” – then how much of the Bible can we trust to be beneficial to us and not lead us astray?
Again, I thank you for all the information and it was nice exchaning ideas with both you and Rams.
God bless you.
Pricilla,
Thank you too and its has been my pleasure exchanging ideas with you and Rams..as I said many times we can only discuss and conclude according to our own findings and beliefs but only the One and Only God knows the truth.
May we all be guided to the true and straight path in our quest in seeking the truth.
Shalom to you both, may blessings continue to fill you and yours. Priscilla, you are right to feel a connection with Y’Shua as your savior, in it’s simplest form he is given the authority of the Father, exactly like “Seeking the truth’s” analogy of an assistant coach, where when she filled that position she did so under authority with full backing from the head coach, as such the players received her word as his authority. I know you don’t, but don’t allow man’s thinking to interrupt that original relationship you had with Y’Shua, in many ways the powers that be want nothing less than to damage it; in my opinion man’s concept of trinity or even for that matter non-trinity is but an example of that, unfortunately we must be challenged that we may learn we can be, trinity is one of several ways that man has tried to define our creator is all. What remains is that Y’Shua is the president of the company, or if you would, the assistant coach of the team, and in that your relationship to him is no different than your relationship to the CEO or head coach, the Father, who also proves to be our Father in Heaven. Y’Shua was known to call himself a brother to us, I look at him as my big brother who happens to be king over all I know.. what an awesome Brother :o) He acts as and fills my Dad’s shoes perfectly… I agree with seeking the truth, her handle says it all, seek that you shall find, as I know you know. In that process we must remember that no different to children, the process of learning takes time, that we do not get impetuous as children do wanting things now, but that as they also do accept the beauty of the voyage with open hearts and minds, as I sense you do. Thank you both. Ramiro.
Hello again :o)
Priscilla on your questions:
1. I agree with “Seeking Truth” when she says “Thomas said ‘My Lord, my God’ in part out of shock, imagine seeing someone back from the grave after you saw them die!!! WOW!!! WHAT A SHOCK!!!
2. I also agree with her second answer and wanted to add. On John 14:13 -14 where Jesus said “Whatever you ask in my name I will do it” and “You may ask ME for anything in my name, and I will do it.”
The original name of Jesus bares special significance here… remember, we use a translated name in modernity (the Greeks made that err). In times of past (not that far back either) people where called by what they did or what they stood for, this meant that names had special significance. In the case of the Y’Shua, the name is comprised of two roots (Yeho or Yah or Yeo and so forth) plus (Shua). The prefix Yeh (first root) = the short name of YHVH or YHWH depending on dialect I think) is the name of the Father and the second (Shua) means, salvation is here (or derivative of same). When we put these together we learn that the name Y’Shua means: Yeh or Yah Salvation is here.
So when we ask for something in the name of Y’Shua who is our salvation, the Father is present, meaning, he comes with the authority of the Father, and off course since the Father is in him (given him authority) he can then do anything of the Father. Hope my understanding of this helps, even better, that it makes sense, I almost feel like I just went through a rendition of Abbot and Costello’s “Who’s on First”.. Lol.. Cont’d blessings :o)
Hi Rams,
Thank you for the last 2 comments – a lot to think about. It was really nice exchanging ideas with you and Seeking Truth.
God bless you. Shalom in Yeshua.
From what I read, I have no doubt you will find your answers… if I can ever be of any help it would be a pleasure… always a blessing to be in the company of the humbled… thank you for the opportunity, continued blessings Priscilla, in Y’Shua Amein.
“For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God,…”, that’s where i’m stuck, anyone want to help me out here?
Let me give it a shot. There are 43 distinct times that the word Jealous can be seen substituted for Zealous in varied scripture translations. Let me give you an example of what I mean, this keeping in mind that post AD scriptural quotes add up to more translation than transliteration, especially in names (eg: Joshua is not Joshua but YehoShua in Hebrew)… this is especially true after the protestant reformation of the 16 to 17th century. Where am I going with this? The word Jealous is seen used in some biblical tranalations, where the word zealous is too. Ie:
KJV: Exodus 20:5 (Whole Chapter)
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
&
YLT: 5Thou dost not bow thyself to them, nor serve them: for I, Jehovah thy God, [am] a zealous God, charging iniquity of fathers on sons, on the third [generation], and on the fourth, of those hating Me,
In Strongs Hebrew Lexicon, the word can mean both jealous and zealous, and as I understand the above quotes, YHVH is compelled to feeling jealous or zealous when He sees that His people are being courted by destructive realities… I guess no different to a man that sees his wife being hit on by another man, that in contrast to husband that feels provoked to jealousy because his wife says hello to another man, or vice versa. In my opinion, there can be righteous and unrighteous jealousy no different than righteous or unrighteous zelousness. In nature we see this in how mothers react when defending their babies, they do so with great zelousness, when watching an event like that the mother comes off like she is jealous. My point is that YHVH feels the same way of His children. Y’Shua acted that way towards His Father at the temple, if you recall, he went into a jealous / zealous rage.
Well, hope my opinion helped. Much Shalom friend.
Rams/Pricilla,
I’m glad we are able to discuss/exchange our ideas with an open mind and not let our emotions control us. We are discussing a very sensitive subject and most people will let their emotions take over and start to ridicule those who are not in agreement or in sync with their beliefs. To this, I said ‘Thank you’ to both of you.
Rams,
I was looking back at all my comments and was wondering why you refer me as a ‘she/her’ in your response to Pricilla, when in reality, I’m a ‘he’. Somehow, I must have given you the impression that I’m a ‘she’. No offence taken though…in fact, I find it funny. However, similarly, if reading my comments, you can have the wrong impression that I’m a ‘she’ (I’m very sure I am not..I check :)), can the early people too make the same mistake in reading the Bible think or given the impression that Jesus is God when he is not ? Only the One and Only God knows.
You are absolute right in your other comments too. However, as I said before, we must consider the time when these Scriptures are written or revealed. If I’m living during the time of Jesus, I will probably be asking something in the name of Jesus as it will be very difficult for me, as part of a society of that time, to accept a God who I cannot see. Now is different, people can accept what is unseen do not necessary means it do not exist….the concept of One and Only God, as stated in the 1st Commandment and that there is a Creator, is beginning to sound believable. I believe all the Messengers of God, including Jesus, are sent to guide Man, first and foremost, to this very 1st Commandment… not to pray to any of them or making them part of the 1st Commandment.
May the One and Only God bless us and guide us to the true and straight path.
Amein my brother, Amein… sorry bout the gender confusion :o)
I agree, I have never understood why believers do argue, I try never go there – even with unbelievers – though at times I am tested. I believe we should all find common ground as believers – in the larger narrative, that of the immense love and grace that if acted upon will lead each of us to eternal life… our individual stance on law should not take precedence over the second greatest commandment, which is to love our fellow man as we love ourselves. I am so glad I can’t remember the last time I yelled at myself in front of the mirror. That said, when I see others not doing this, I remind myself I have been there, I too didn’t get it, even now I still tell myself I dont get it…
As to my offer to be here for what I can give, that doesnt change bro, even if you are not a girl :o)
As to your comment on Y’Shua not being God… “Seeking Truth” made a great analogy, that of the assistant and head coach, it got me to thinking about sports fans and their favorite team, God being the head of the team, the body can’t function without the head but the head can’t function without the body, that to me is God. Lets not forget Genesis: 3:22 (US)… I think the problem is that we have been drilled with the word so much that we loose site of what it means, we see the word as one person when in fact man has added a word that lends itself to a singular person, that is why I like Hebrew translations for the word God (Elohim).. another original word that has been changed, a word that tells us it is more than one person. It is an institution, even even Moses was called god by pharoh with the permision of Elohim (God). God is not a person, it is a thing, a group, an entity that is made up of, in the case of our Creator Source, varying parts. One then can reason that no different than the superbowl rings, each one of those parts make up for the whole. Go team Go!!! Go Elohim go!!! Thank you Father (Coach), in Y’Shua, Amein.
To Seeking Truth,
I need to get some sleep… disregard the “Seeking Truth” comment, you are seeking truth!!! For some reason I thought I was talking with Priscilla again,,, is she the girl? maybe not, I don’t know… here we go again, an Abbot and Costello moment. Lol.. Good night my brother from the same Father, with the same Brother :o)
Continued blessings brother, lets stay in touch and in the ruach, it is a good thing for us. In Y’Shua always Amein.
Rams, my brother,
On the gender confusion, don’t worry about it… no offence taken, after all as they said ‘To err is human..’, right ? I am sure Pricilla is a girl 🙂
My analogy of the Assistant coach and the Head coach is to highlight that sometimes words said may have a different intention than what it sound to be. Thus, when I, as an Assistant coach said to my team ‘The Head coach and I are one’ it means I totally agreed with the Head coach’s strategy and now telling the team about the strategy. The Head coach is still very much his own individual just as I am. There are times when I am not in agreement with the Head coach’s strategy and I will tell the team ‘The Head coach and I are not one …’.
On your comment ‘God is not a person, it is a thing, a group, an entity that is made up of, in the case of our Creator Source, varying parts’ I have to say, with all due respects, my brother,that I don’t quite agree with that statement. God is not a person (I agreed) but then God is also not a thing, God is also not an entity of various parts. The truth is God is beyond comparison and neither can He be associated with anything that Man have seen or can imagine….God is way, way above all these. This is very difficult for the human mind to understand as the human mind have the tendency to visualize everything with something. The human mind think in pictures or images. For instance if I say to you a cat, the word ‘CAT’ will not appear in your mind, but an image of a cat will pop out in your mind. If I say GOD to you, an image of something/someone that your mind can conceive or familiar with will appear. In your case, an image of Jesus will appear because that’s what you grew up with. So imagine the statement ‘God is beyond Man’s imagination’, the human mind will not accept this as the mind cannot accept something that the mind cannot place an image to….that’s how the human mind works. But then God is beyond the realm of the human mind…He is the Creator of the Heavens and Earth and everything in between…so who are we to compare Him or associate Him with anything of His own creations ? I forever stand humble before God and seek His Forgiveness if I have astray from His true teachings.
May the One and Only God bless us and guide us to the true and straight path.
Hello Seeking Truth,
I thought I was done with comments – but this is just a side-comment.
When I hear “God”, I don’t visualize anything, and maybe that is good because God is a spirit. At the most, and only rarely, when I think about God during my reading, I visualize these awesome colors passing by Moses when God told Moses that he could only see God’s back as He passed by him. I don’t know how “God’s glory” looks like, but the colors that I imagine are flowing like in a wind, and just so shining and awesome. But mostly, I don’t visualize anything/anyone when I am praying to God. I saw a painting once of “God” – this great shining light (not sun)on a throne. That is something that also comes to my mind at times.
What I am trying to say, is that when I hear “God”, I do not see Jesus. And when people say “Jesus”, I visualize a human form in Middle-Eastern clothing from 2000 yrs. ago (influenced by so many icons and movies).
Hi Pricilla,
Nice to hear from you…as always, your comments are always welcome and they are always fruits for thoughts.
If you are praying to God and you are not visualising God as any image, thats good as in prayers, one should only felt God’s presence without visualising Him in any forms because God is beyond comparison and beyond Man’s imagination.
On the other comment, I am just saying if one believe Jesus is God, then its only natural for that person to conjure an image of Jesus in his mind when references are made to God. But in your case I might be wrong as I have the impression you believe that Jesus is God and yet you said you don’t see Jesus when you hear “God”.
May the One and Only God bless us and guide us to the true and straight path.
Hi Seeking Truth,
I just cannot imagine God as a human. It’s easier for me to imagine the SON of God in human form. With God all things are possible, so God BEGETTIMG (not CREATING) a son in human form – I can accept that.
I understand this as Jesus coming FROM God, just as the Holy Spirit comes FROM God and that is why I have a problem with the word Trinity – which we already discussed in length.
So, to me God is God, Jesus is Jesus and the Holy Spirit is Holy Spirit – and I feel guilty that I cannot reconcile all three as GOD. (Maybe I shouldn’t feel guilty…) All three certainly have a common mind and work together unitedly for the good of the whole CREATION, but to me they are still three separate “persons” or “personalities” – I don’t know how else to put it.
That is why I have a problem visualizing GOD as Jesus. And another reason is that Jesus himself prayed to GOD.
I agree my brother,
Shalom, my point on the definition of God is that He is not one person for Genesis 3:22 tells us there are more than that made creation is all. It is difficult for me to express in writing what I want to sometimes… I have a tendency to use illustration in my writing which lends itself to interpretation, no different to metaphor can be confusing at times.
Just so you know, for some reason I thought I was writing to Pricilla, and that Pricilla was a guy, wow!!!
Thank you for the thoughts :o) Shalom.
Hi Pricilla,
Don’t you think you are contradicting yourself when you said you cannot imagine God as a human yet you can accept that God begets. Beget and begotten are human/animals traits and God is nothing close to His creations. God is beyond our thinking of what He is or looks like as God is so pure and is the Glory Supreme.
My understanding of the Holy Spirit is that The Holy spirit, like the Angels, is the creation of God too. The Holy Spirit have 2 roles of responsibilties :
1. It creates our “spirits.” God uses it to blow into our mothers’ wombs our human-spirits. That is why abortion is prohibited by God, because the foetus does have spirit (life) and it is a human being. It’s not just a little piece of unliving flesh:
2. To provide Divine Guidance to the Believers or to whoever God favours.
In Isaiah 11:1-3, we see a prediction about the “Spirits” being ‘installed’ in the coming Prophet, Jesus.
1. A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
2. The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him (Jesus)– the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD
3. and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or decide by what he hears with his ears.
From the above verses, we can see how special Jesus is to God that He granted Jesus at birth with 1. Spirit of Wisdom and Understanding 2. Spirit of Counsel and Power 3. Spirit of Knowledge and 4. Spirit of Fear for the Lord. Does this make Jesus God ? Personally, I don’t think so but then again only the One and Only God knows. This, however, are proofs to the Greatness of God and that He alone can grant anything to whoever He favours.
May the One and Only God bless us and guide us to the true and straight path.
Seeking Truth,
Shalom (Peace be with you)… I agree that when you use the word God you are referring to the creator right? after all that is what the word means. Here are my thoughts on the matter. I don’t want to be repetitious here but I can’t stress enough that scripture tells us what the word means, Gen. 3:22 (a plurality of beings) and therein the reason why the original word Elohim (which is plural) existed in place of the later translated word God. That is the part we always miss, it’s almost like we want to stay blind to that. I believe you are right to say that God is the only one that ultimately knows, that is commendable in my estimation, but the use of the word in itself denotes to the listener that God is one person, when in fact scripture says different. This is what Trinity teaches, one personable God with subordinate parts, a much easier concept for people to understand – the story of the founding church… that in their mission to save souls from damnation (in growing the catholic faith)they would even go as far as adopting pagan holidays. If taken further back Egyptian and Greek deital systems are similar… in those belief systems there is always one individual that is the creator of all, with sub and demi-gods as subordinates of same. Need we forget that in 325 AD the counsel of Niacea was split but voted for Trinity versus non-trinity, the foudning of a new Christian doctrine that flies in the face of scriptural writing… though it sounds similar to the scriptural account – it differs in that YHVH consistently reminds His people that Elohim, which is plural by scriptural account, is a singular Creator SOURCE / ENTITY, and again… Gen. 3:22. Personally I believe that the word in itself should be what was originally written (Elohim). The word God carries a different definition to that of its original form, a word that has changed our understanding of our Creator, a word that confuses scriptural meaning. Elohim and God bare different meanings, the latter inculcated into the fabric of cultures throughout the world, even I use the word. Off course these are my thoughts based on my research and not intended to insult any of my bretheren. Shalom.
Hi Seeking Truth,
I cannot imagine GOD as human flesh and blood. It would sound too much like Greek mythology – or Roman worship of their gods and caesars.
I am using only words that are in the Bible – I have no other reference. In all these instances, in the King James Bible, the word “begot” or “begotten” is used. Psalm 2:7, John 1:18, John 3:16, John 3:18, 1 John 4:9.
Jesus did not have an earthly father – or at least that is what is written in the Bible. His mother was a virgin (in Isaiah in Hebrew it says “young girl” which at that time had to mean “virgin” because if she was a young girl and not a virgin she would have been probably stoned to death).
In Luke 1:35 the angel says to Mary: “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the HOLY ONE to be born will be called the SON of God.”
If God is Almighty and can create the whole world and what is in it just by SAYING “Let there be…” then I believe that according to the above He can also “beget” a son – maybe the English language does not have the right word for that, but at least it shows that “begat” is not the same as “created” because God stopped creating on the 6th day and saw that everything was good – and rested from all His work on the 7th day. No more creation after that.
I do believe that God is able to “beget” – for lack of any other more precise or suitable word. His kind of “begetting” is not a human trait because, obviously, Jesus came into his human existance in a very different way than other humans.
So, the only thing left is to ask if I shouldn’t believe what is written in the Bible – or how much I shouldn’t believe – or how will I know what to believe and what not?
I had a hard time understanding the subject of our previous discussions, but now I am even more confused, by what you are saying.
Peace!
Shalom, Just wondering what your feedbacks are:
The manifestation of the Spirit can not precede an act unless it has already been proven (only revealed after an action takes place): This is how I see the Holy Spirit. If it is holy it is from Elohim, if it is not, it’s from evil. The apostles, for example, purged themselves of bad spirit by following Y’Shua’s example. This reality can be seen in their discipleship, they acted to follow the teacher that they may learn to purge out the old and in with the new, the lesson for us all.
A follow-up to Priscilla’s comment: In the case of Mary the act of her divine impregnation then lead to the manifestation of the Holy Spirit and not that the Holy Spirit to divine impreganation… in the verse you quote we can see two distinct things occur, the Holy Spirit becomes manifested (seen) through a certain power that comes over her (the act). The way I understand that is that the act must occur before I can see the Holy Spirit manifested.
As I understand it, scripture teaches there must be an act in order that the spirit can be determined as holy or not. Another example is in how scripture tells us to look to the fruit in others, it is speaking of fruits of the spirit or manifestation of same, that we may know who we are dealing with.
When I look to define the mystery of the so thought invisible Spirit, it is not such a mystery anymore… as I have come to understand it, it exists in our ability to choose that our fruits become manifest, in essence, that our Spirits (the manifestation of fruit) prove to be of Elohim and not evil. Spirit is either one or the other or a combination thereof (Neither hot nor cold .. Rev: 2 – 3).
This leads to what I consider a travesty to the body of Y’Shua. For example… many bible teachers today wrongly teach that baptismal will miraculously fill us with holy Spirit. Further they teach that the Holy Spirit pays the rent or fills our bank account – if we give off course. They omit that the Holy Spirit comes from repenting (turning away from evil) and not some mystical force that acts to save us… scripture is consistent… it says our Father loves us so, that he sent His begotten son that we may what? CHOOSE to follow in His steps, not miraculously be zapped into salvation, my skin crawls when I hear this sort of teaching. If we do not act towards being Holy, set-apart, our temples can not prove to be Holy. Just a thought that occurred. Shalom
Hi Pricilla,
Good morning or is it good evening for you,
I’m sorry if I have confused you, sometimes, like my brother Rams said, lengthy explanations can and often do, lead to misinterpretations and confusions.
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son….” John 3:16 King James Version is a very popular verse used to show that Jesus is God’s begotten son. But did you know that in the New Revised Version of the Bible, which was validated by Christians Scholars, the word ‘begotten’ is removed from this verse as it was said to be an add-on and was never in the original text? “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son….” John 3:16 New Revised Standard Version Bible.
Then again, you will still argue that Jesus is still Son of God, maybe not begotten son but still son of God. Agreed, but then again, in the Bible, Jesus is not the only individual for whom the term “Son of God” is used. The term is used in Luke 3:38 for Adam; in Exodus 4:22 for Israel; in 1 Chronicles 22:10 for David; and in Jeremiah 31:9 for Ephraim. It seems that the terms “Son of God” and “Sons of God” are not used in their physical or literal senses but rather in the metaphorical or symbolic senses.
I hope I am not adding more confusions for you. I am also not trying to change what you believe as I do respect everyone’s beliefs but merely sharing informations, as brother Rams is sharing with us his informations, so that we can make better conclusions ourselves.
May the One and Only God Bless us and guide us to the true and straight path.
Rams, my brother,
Yes, God is also the ultimate Creator which I believe we both agreed. But it seem we also agreed to disagree on what God is. I normally try to stay away from this subject as to me, its not within our intellect capacity to figure our what God is or how God is organized. God is uncomparable, beyond our thinking mind, He is One and Only. I have no other gods before this God and I pray only to this God, the same God I believe that Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad and all other Prophets before them pray to.
You quoted Gen 3:22 to emphasize “a plurality of beings and therein the reason why the original word Elohim (which is plural) existed in place…” The plural here points to the the Majestic plural or the royal ‘we’ as in many verses of the Hebrew Bible. It does not indicate prurality of beings or in the sense of Trinity.
‘Elohim’ plural indicate the all-inclusiveness of God’s attributes of authority and power, the plurality of majesty. It is customary for one in authority to speak of himself as if he were a plurality. Hence, Absalom said to Ahithophel, “Give your counsel what we shall do” Samuel 16:20. The context shows that he was seeking advice for himself yet he refers to himself as ‘we’ .
May the One and Only God Bless us and guide us to the true and straight path.
As Wikipedia states (the second part of your explanation above brother)…”Its first recorded use was in 1169[citation needed] when King Henry II, hard pressed by his barons over the Investiture Controversy, assumed the common theory of “divine right of kings,” that the monarch acted conjointly with the deity. Hence, he used “we” as “God and I…,” or so the legend goes. (See Rolls Series, 2.12)[not specific enough to verify. In the public situations in which it is used, the monarch or other dignitary is typically speaking, not in his own proper person, but as leader of a nation or institution.”
My point is that the use of the word “us” in the vernacular implies more than one entity, regardless of royalty. That is what I have learned.
I agree that scripture states that His thoughts are higher than ours, and yet it also speaks to us of very personal relationships between Elohim and His chosen. Also, there are thousands of uses (I ran a word check and read a few) that use the US in scripture. From a sample group of about 30 I found that the use of the word always implies others as well, even if used from the singular.
I respect and appreciate your opinion and am glad that we have an opportunity to sharpen our understanding. Much Shalom Brother!!!
Are you the host here?
Sorry, I meant many uses of the word us not thousands. Shalom
Rams, my brother,
To be honest, sometimes I’m a little bit lost with your comments.. its like you are saying ‘Give me a very cold drink but make sure its really hot!’.
Of course the use of the word “us” or “we” implies (but not neccessarily) more than one entity. It depends on who/how uses it. The King will always address himself in publc as “we” to indicate authority or as a Royal leader of a nation. This “we” have nothing to do with plurality of beings. Similarly, as I have said, ‘Elohim’ plural indicate the all-inclusiveness of God’s attributes of authority and power… a clear evidence of the One God. Sometimes the word “we” can also be used as a reference to “you” like a doctor asking his young patient “How are we feeling today?” Of course, the doctor is not asking himself how he is feeling and how is his patient feelng today! As I said before sometimes words written may mean differently than what they sound to be especially if they are Man-inspired words….and the Scriptures are full of them.
May the One and Only God Bless us and guide us to the true and straight path.
Thank you brother,
I respectfully disagree but I appreciate your point of view. What remains is that WE both love the Father, the Son, and any other part of Him, it is a blessing to have that union.
Shalom and thank you.
Rams, my brother, thats okay and no hard feelings.
We can (and continue to) agree or disagree. I am here only to present my views. Hope my comments help to shed some light one way or another, if not, thank you for respecting and reading my comments anyway.
May the One and Only God Bless us and guide us to the true and straight path.
Hi Seeking Truth,
Right now it’s middle of the morning here.
For me, the Bible is my spiritual compass. Yes, sometimes I don’t really know how to understand the compass, but I believe it still points me in the right direction.
All the examples you showed me of the word “son” (including the whole nation of Israel) are examples of those conceived/born in a normal, human, created way. And the term “son” was used to show how dear these created humans were to God. Obviously, the whole nation of Israel cannot be ONE son.
I will give you another example. In my native language, as a term of ENDEARMENT, we even say to the girls “Son, do this or that” or “Son, let me tell you a story” or “Oh, son, you really shouldn’t have done that” etc. That does not mean that the daughter is really a son. So, I would say that all the references you gave fall in this kind of catagory – endearment.
In addition, even if you take out the word “begotten” (for Jesus was not conceived/born in the same way), the other translations read “the ONE and ONLY Son” or “the ONLY Son” – which would put Jesus on a different level than the references you gave. Or, is this also a mistake or an add-on that Jesus is the ONE and ONLY Son of God?
So, my question, again, is: HOW much of the Bible am I to believe, WHAT in the Bible am I to believe, and how would I – or you – know that what “scholars” say was an “add-on” really was an add-on? They are human beings who can persuade us that they know better. This way, they can discredit the whole Bible. So, what should we believe and what should we not?
In Hebrew there is “Eloha” (GOD – singular) and ELOHIM (I would translate it GODS – Plural. But we know that there is only ONE GOD).
1. So, if “we” and “us” is the ROYAL singular, then it would have to be used for Eloha – but in the Bible it says Elohim, in plural, and the use of “we” and “us” is in context of the plural form. Father, Word and Holy Spirit.
2. In Hebrew, the doctor would not have asked a patient from 2000-3000 yrs. ago (or even 50 yrs. ago) “How are WE feeling today?” though today they would because the language is being corrupted by the insertion and translation of English words. Some translations from English used today in Hebrew are totally out of this world but have caught on as wildfire in daily conversation. So, this argument of “we” is not really valid for the time the Bible was written.
3. I would not think that attributes and authority count as “we” and “us”.
Hi Pricilla,
Welcome back !
Firstly, the ‘son of God’ examples I quoted are not my own but from the Bible itself…I just want to be clear on that. Its also not true to say that all the examples quoted, as you said “are examples of those conceived/born in a normal, human, created way” as I also mentioned the term is used in Luke 3:38 for Adam…and we all know Adam did not come into existence in a normal, human, created way. Adam has no father nor mother…does this make Adam more special than Jesus ?
In trying to convince ourselves that Jesus is God or the only son of God because the Apostles said this or that or because Jesus is His one and only son, we got lost to the very Message that all His Chosen Ones are trying to convey to us and that is the very 1st Commandment “You shall have no other gods before me.” We have lost the tree from the forests. We begin to believe that all the powerful miracles performed by the Prophets are really from themselves. We forgot the Greatness of God and that He alone can grant anything to whoever He favours.
Pricilla, if the Bible is your spiritual compass, by all means use it but just don’t lose the tree from the forests.
May the One and Only God Bless us all and guide us to the true and straight path.
Hi Seeking Truth,
I know that the quotes were from the Bible.
I hope I can make myself understood: Adam is the son of God, CREATED from EARTH – and that is what I meant when I said all humans were conceived/born in a normal CREATED human way. And so all of us go back to earth because that is where we came from in the beginning. (Just now a thought came to me – we could say that the earth – some even say “Mother Earth” – was Adam’s first parent – mother – and God that CREATED him was his father.) And, yes, Adam is Gos’s son as much as all the created humans are that come from Adam.
Jesus was not created from earth, he came into human existance through the Holy Spirit and He resurrected from the “earth” because he was not of the earth and the earth could not hold him down.
I still would like to know how much of what is written in the Bible I can believe and how I can tell what is an add-on/corruption or not. How can I use it as a compass if you say that the compass is “broken”.
It’s funny, the Muslims would kill if anyone said the Koran was corrupted, but Christians don’t even speak up when someone says that the Bible is corrupted. In fact, some even seem to WANT to find add-ons and corruptions in the Bible. Strange.
Hi Pricilla,
Did I said your compass was broken ?
I believe no one has the right to say whether the Bible, or for that matter, the Quran, is corrupted or not. Even if that someone think he has supporting facts, its not for him to decide that. He can present his facts and its up to the individuals to review his facts and decide. I believe the Bible, like the Torah and the Quran do have a Divine origin. To say that one of these Books, in general, is corrupted is equivalent in saying that God’s Book is corrupted. I don’t think I want to be part of this group.
To your question “..how much of what is written in the Bible I can believe and how I can tell what is an add-on/corruption or not…” I am afraid there is no fix guidelines to this as each of us is his/her own individuality. I believe you need to read, with an open mind, as much of the Bible scriptures as well as the Quran so that you are equipped with the knowledge to decide. I wish we are as lucky as Jesus to be born immediately equipped with all the knowledge, wisdom and understanding but unfortunately, we are not and have to acquire all this by ourselves.
To your comment “..the Muslims would kill if anyone said the Koran was corrupted..” well, don’t just generalize Muslims as ALL Muslims. Not all Muslims would kill if anyone said the Quran was corrupted. Admittedly, there are violence Muslims just as there are peace loving Muslims…there are also violence Christians just as there are peace loving Christians. Its funny too, as what I have seen in other forums, Christians humiliating and saying degrading words about Prophet Muhammad, and yet the Muslims cannot say the same things about Jesus as no Muslim is a true Muslim if he do not believe in Jesus. Isn’t that ironic ?
May the One and Only God Bless us and guide us to the true and straight path.
Hi Seeking Truth,
I didn’t mean to insult anyone. I probably should have put the word KILL in quotation marks “kill”. I didn’t mean actual killing – though every religion has its fanatics that would really kill for their religion. I just meant that the Muslims would not let anyone talk negatively of Koran (as Christians let others talk negatively of the Bible), without fighting for its honor. They do not let anyone talk negatively of Muhamed and would “fight” to keep his name honorable, while some Christians tear Jesus down and nobody lifts their voice to contradict them.
I don’t know if I understood you correctly. But I don’t know why people would say that a Muslim could not be a true Muslim if he did not believe in Jesus. The opposite is true – he could not be a Muslim if he DID believe in Jesus. Islam is a religion just like Christianity. So if a Muslim believed in Jesus, he would not be a Muslim anymore but a Christian – but of Arab, or African, or Indonesian, etc. nationality.
As for Bible being a broken compass: how good is it if I can’t believe what is written in it? If I can’t, then it is no good to me as a compass.
God bless you!
Hi Pricilla,
I mean exactly what I said ”No Muslims is a true Muslim if he don’t believe in Jesus”.
Muslim means to submit to one God only and Islam is the Religion. To be a true Muslim, one must believe in one God and he must believe in all the Prophets/Messengers and Jesus is one of, if not, the greatest Messenger of them all. So, if a Muslim don’t believe in Jesus, how can he call himself a true Muslim? Muhammad is the final Messenger after Jesus.
Your comment “So if a Muslim believed in Jesus, he would not be a Muslim anymore but a Christian..” is not true. Islam is a religion that exists from the time of Adam. During Adam time, a true Muslim is one who believe in one God and believe and follow the teachings of Adam. During Moses time, a true Muslim is one who believe in one God and believe in all the Messengers before Moses and follow the teachings of Moses. Similarly, during Jesus time, a true Muslim is one who believe in one God, believe in all the Messengers before Jesus and follow the teachings of Jesus. Today, a true Muslim is one who believe in one God, believe in all the Prophets/ Messengers (which include Jesus) before Muhammad and follow the teachings of Muhammad. .
So, when Jesus said “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” John 14:6, all Muslims will agree as during Jesus time, He is the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through his teachings. Similarly with all the other Messengers, during their respective times, they are the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through their teachings. Hope this will help you to understand a little about the Muslims and their beliefs.
May the One and Only God Bless us and guide us to the true and straight path.
Shalom Priscilla,
Scripture may have variances in words, many translations will prove that, but the message exists within it’s theme, as I understand it. A professor once asked us to read a short Literary story and report on it, we did. The story was Maya Anyelou’s, “The ones who Escape From Omelas”… She then asked the class to argue the theme by contrasting same with a life occurrence, ultimately everyone gave different examples yet the interesting thing is that all the examples gave the same message, that of a sacrificial lamb. The child was kept locked up in dark and dreary place, for if he was ever released Omelas (all agreed a utopia) would perish. Every day people would toss scraps of food through the iron bars to keep the child alive. If and when a citizen decided to leave Omelas in disgust of what was happening they would never be heard from again.
My point is, while translations in scripture do have varying discrepancies, words that have been changed to reflect a given doctrine (a man made thing), do not change the theme, the message. The teaching itself is understood by all to culminate in the story of a Creators’ willingness to not abandon us to the dungeon of evil… if you know what I mean. He made us that we may choose and so too scripture shows the angels that followed Lucifers (Satan’s) lead… they chose also. No different to them we are all made of a divine spark, however not all with the same authority… You are correct my friend, Y’Shua was a man in body, but his spark was not, for as Mathew says, he was god and God was with him, in the beginning. Clearly that then must mean that the physical manifestation of Messiah indeed must have been God, for a God he was (again Mathew 1:1)… the term God means creator, but the creator is more than one as scripture tells us. The word God defines taht which worked to Create all we know and don’t. Scripture tells us though Y’Shua and the Father are not the same, they function for the same cause, that of creation. I can see you see that. Hope this helps Sister… may all our walks always cause blessing for Elohim.
My understanding of that Creators’ definition, I like to compare bibles, is that he is a government (God), this is what acted to create, with varying levels of authority… The Father as the Head and Y’Shua as the right hand of the Father. I understand that any party of that government can be called God as in the case of Mathew 1:1 .
Just one last thought of mine, the Father is above all, as affirmed by Y’Shua (the Father’s right hand – now in Authority given by the Father)… and so too do the Prophets and others tell us. As usual we continue to grow, that I appreciate your views immensely, for though my view is my view, I also grow from yours… thank you both. Shalom. Ramiro.
Thank you Rams. Shalom and God bless you.
Hi SEEKING TRUTH: I truly hope you will find THE Truth. I have found mine, but, as you saw in our discussions in the beginning, the only thing that is bothering me is that I don’t fully understand the Trinity as is taught in chruches. Maybe I will one day. And maybe it is not all that important to understand it. Right now, I KNOW that Jesus is the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE. Before giving way to Jesus in my life, I was truly in darkness and almost dead. And I mean – physically dead. Since Jesus, even though life is hard, I can still smile, and I can enjoy the birds singing and enjoy the beauty of the whole creation. Before Jesus, I didn’t hear or see all the beauty of the creation. And I do have peace inside because I am not afraid of God anymore. Before Jesus, I just wanted to hide from God but couldn’t and that made me deathly afraid of God.
Jesus says in Matthew 24:4-5: Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, “I am the Messiah,” and will DECEIVE many. Mark 13:5-7 says almost the same.
I do not want to be deceived.
I wish you peace and that you will find what you are seeking. You will be in my thoughts. May God truly bless you and answer all your questions.
Shalom Pricilla, as I sense you know we are all on a voyage, all of us, I am grateful that voyage is towards eternal salvation, that we may allow it so, that we may share.
I am sorry to read you had an accident… I did too about 1.5 yrs ago. My back was broken and I am alive for a reason. Living in His light. He soon returns in the clouds :o) Halleluyah, Shalom. Blessings be His, in Y’Shua, Amein.
Hi Rams,
Sorry to hear about your accident. I did not have an accident but was very near to checking out of this world.
All that is in the past and Jesus gave me life and I am looking forward to eternity with Him who paid for my sins with his life and blood, in my place, so that I can be free from punishment.
I will be thinking of you. Both you and Seeking Truth have become friends to me.
Yes, we will see His glorious return soon. Halleluja, Shalom and Blessings in Yeshua.
Amein Pricilla, Amein, you have a brother and a friend hear… much love always in Y’Shua :o)
Hi Pricilla/Brother Rams,
Thank you to for still being my friends eventho’ we may have conflicting views. Likewise, you wll always have a friend in me.
Brother Rams is right in his definition about Islam. Islam is about Faith and Faith is belief and action. The key word here is ACTION. In my earlier comment, I said Muslim means one who submit to God and Islam is a Religion that call all its followers to submit to one God and believe in all the God’s Prophets. So, if during Moses time, one submit himself to the Will of the one God and believe in all the Messengers before Moses and follow the teachings of Moses (he is the Messenger of that time), he is a Muslim and he’s practicing Islam. Why ? Because of his ACTIONS eventhough the words ‘Muslim’ or ‘Islam’ do not exist (or not yet founded) at that time.
So, lets look at Jesus’s actions ..do Jesus believe and pray to God? Yes, “He fell with his face to the ground and prayed” Mathew 26:39
Do Jesus believe in all the Prophets before him ? Yes, as in Mathew 5:17-19, Jesus said
“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”
To the Muslims, Jesus is a Muslim and he practiced Islam Why ? Because of his actions.
Jesus said “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.” John 16:12-14. Who is Jesus talking about? He is obviously talking about Muhammad as Muhammad did glorified Jesus and he did continue the teachings of Jesus. Muhammad did only speaks what he hear as he’s an illiterate.. the man can’t read or write ! Jesus cannot be talking about the Holy Ghost as the Holy Ghost is already, all the time, present.
Pricilla and brother Rams, we can go to and foth on this but in the end I know you have already agreed to disagree. I can only present my view of the facts in the logical and rational manner as I believe God’s chosen path to eternal Salvation for His people should be rational and logical. I have read the Bible with an open mind and I have read the Quran with an open mind. I love to question things and to be honest, I read the Bible to find faults in the Quran ! But instead, I found the truth in the Quran.
Pricilla, you said you don’t want to be deceived and I pray you will not be deceived.
May the One and Only God Bless us and guide us to the true and straight path.
Shalom brother,
I answered your last post but cant find it here, I must have not submitted when i exited. It all comes down to what came first, in simple terms. Much shalom and may continued blessings be YHVH, in Y’Shua, Amein.
Brother Rams,
Too bad you lost your last post as I’m not sure what you meant by “It all comes down to what came first, in simple terms.” Care to elaborate ?
May the One and Only God Bless us and guide us to the true and straight path.
Shalom Seeking Truth,
I feel I would like to have more time to do more, including posting here, yet my project and other things seem to prevail. One definite thing that is never sacrificed is my daily reading / meditation in scripture, usually followed up with some research; of which I wish more would do to their benefit, I think. Yes, referenced what came first? I was referring to Judeo Christian writings, they came first and later other similar text, including the Quran. My point was that I can no more decide to take from that reality than I would from certain laws in nature… I do believe it is the originally inspired word of Elohim, therein my mainstay. When I research I compare, the conviction comes only once I have concluded a process of bible / cultural and other comparison. I see the bible as inspired by Elohim and though man has had some influence in the process, this approach helps me to see through much of it.
Have you read about the Mesha Steel Stone Tablet? Today it sits in the Louvre Museum (France I think). Secular archeology has dated it to around 1400 BC (around then). The stone had been broken into pieces, but prior to that an archeologist had taken a cast impression of the original. Some parts of it was lost but other parts found, so they have pieced the found parts together and added the originally casted ones making for a complete message from a Canaanite king called Mesha. In the stone he speaks of Omri, the king of the Hebrews in that time, and how Mesha and his god defeated them in battle. As it stands the scriptural account speaks of King Omri as the worse offender of YHVH’s word (worse king of Hebrews ever), and here is a stone of the era uncovered by secular archeologists. And again, my point is, original scripture is what it is, other religions have borrowed from it, in the case of Islam, it has also added another narrative, that of Mohamed… I am not saying Mohamed was not a prophet, but to say that because the Quran says he is the last prophet when it is not found in the original text, there is where I digress. The way I see that brother is that though many of these religious movements and religions were founded on faith, what we find as we move forward in time is that the original text, the Tanahk and New Covenants continue to prove themselves. With that said we can not and should not take more liberty than is allowed. Y’Shua is called the Messiah, that he was a prophet I agree, but no other prophet has ever been risen from the dead, as so many reported and annotated within the pages of scripture. For 40 days thousands of faithful people saw him walking among the living. Granted, Mohamed is seen riding into the heavens but so too was Eliyah and Enoc… but yet somehow that makes them the Messiah scripture speaks of? I don’s see how. But I continue to learn that scripture may continue to validate all else, in Y’Shua brother: that was my point. As always, thank you for your insistence in searching your truth, may we always find that our walks bless our Heavenly Father; a full cup is an empty cup.
Much shalom.
I think very strong,Yahshua/Jesus is Yahweh in the flesh,He is the living Torah..John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word,and the Word was with Elohim, and the Word was Elohim…
Brother Rams,
Thank you for clarifying and I do see your points about the earlier writings, including the Bible that came much earlier than the Quran. I also agreed with you that the original Bible was written by people who was inspired by God, in fact, you can say God-inspired words are God’s Words. I also believe that the original Bible, like the Torah which was revealed to Moses, was in their respective time, the divine-reference Book for the Believers, including the Muslims.
My problem with the Bible however, is that through time, the Bible has lost its originality through man interference and surely you must agree that the Bible we hold today is no longer the same Bible of the time when it was God-inspired. We have the Old Testaments, the New Testaments and new Revised Version Bible. Was the original Bible in English? If not, then it must be later translated to English and we all know translation can lead to misinterpretation as it will be based on the interpretation of the writers. Christians (maybe not all Christians) now believe the Laws of the Old Testaments no longer apply with the New Testaments for example, in the OT, God forbids the eating of swine (pork), however, with the NT, this Law is not mentioned, therefore Christians now can eat anything they wish. God’s original Laws can change or removed ??
You are right that the Quran came much later after the Bible. However, in this case, its not about what came first. It’s the case of ‘If it ain’t broken, why change it, but if it is, then by all means change/repair it”. You need to understand why the Quran was revealed in the first place. The Quran was sent down to mankind because the Bible was no longer in its originality thus, the Quran was sent to rectify the texts that was corrupted by mankind. Yet, despite this, Muhammad told his followers to respect the Bible as it started as the true Word of God. If they reject the Bible as a whole, then they may be rejecting words that may remained true words of God. In my previous comments, I have always quoted verses from the Bible to support my arguments but in this case, I have to quote a few verses from the Holy Quran.
“And believe in what I have sent down confirming that which is [already] with you, and be not the first to disbelieve in it. And do not exchange My signs for a small price, and fear [only] Me” Holy Quran 2:41 … Here God is telling the people to believe what are already with them ie. The Bible
“And do not mix the truth with falsehood or conceal the truth while you know [it]” Holy Quran 2:42 … This is quite self-explanatory ie. if you add/change/remove a text from the Bible, then you are mixing the truth with falsehood and concealing the truth and you are doing this knowingly.
May the One and Only God Bless us and guide us to the true and straight path.
Seeking Truth,
Sorry, I didn’t see the first post and wrote another – I thought the first was deleted for some reason. I still don’t know if it was or not, or whether they will post both of them. I just saw the second post that says it is waiting for “moderation”. Until today I didn’t have to wait for “moderation” but I understand the editors – there were 2 posts really poisonous for a short time and then taken out – one a few days ago and one yesterday. I was surprised they let them appear at all – but I guess it was only human error. I am glad that they are now “moderating” the posts.
Hi Pricilla,
Yes, I saw one of the 2 poisonous posts and I am glad they were removed by the moderators. Everyone should have the right to speak their minds here but that should not be taken as a license to show hatred to other people’s beliefs.
Best Wishes Always.
Hi Seeking Truth,
In the posts I gave some website addresses – I guess they are checking them out. If they don’t publish the post,I’ll try again later. I copied it to Word after the first post, and I won’t have to write everything all over again – just “copy-paste”.
Hi Seeking Truth,
They finally published the posts – both of them! No. 43 & 44. I hope you will find some interest in the sites.
As you always say, May the One and Only God Bless us and guide us to the true and straight path.
Hello and shalom to all… to Bella:
I agree with your statement that Elohim is one; yet, I also believe he is plural, unlike what religion has taught us: the core reason we see more and more seekers returning to the original Hebrew and non Greek translation of the New Covenant Bible. Praise YHVH, in Y’Shua.
Example: Today we know that as of about 300 years ago, Bible versions that have derived from Greek and Niacean translations moved to change the holy name of YHVH (or Elohim) to the singular form of Lord or God. The message? An implied singular God, that evidence is showing us is a man-made doctrinal thing.
Reinforced further in Masoretic writings (after 7th century AD) the word Adonai (which also means Lord – but in Hebrew) would prove no less, also adding to the singularity of YHVH (Elohim). In fact, we know that after about 200 BC (the estimated year of the writing of dead sea scrolls) and the councel of Niacea 325AD, a “One God Man” concept would also lead to a newly formed Christian doctrine, whence from which came the near obliteration of the holy name from scripture and leading to the present day, with terms like God (Hashem) and Lord (Adonai). Elohim today is used in the singular, the vernacular of God or Lord.
In the Hebrew account, which is still in today’s Bibles, shows in Genesis 3:22, and elsewhere in scripture, that the creator is in fact a plural (Elohim) ENTITY, and not what post Niacean doctrine teaches us.
The good news is that more and more are coming back to original writings; Hebrew writings that define the creator as what it defines Him to be, a plural ENTITY (One Creator Source). As I have come to understand that, various parts within one Creator Entity (or Government) made up of the Father (the head), His right Hand man – the son, and the angels, all of which pay homage and service to the one and only Father of all, and so to as Y’Shua did, and so to as he taught us to do. May all the glory and blessing be His, in Y’Shua, Amein. Just sharing what I have learned.
Thanks for sharing your views :o) Continued blessings be His that they may be ours.
Shalom Seeking Truth, my brother,
I see where you are coming from but bear with me, the original scriptures have seen some modification, mostly key words that better allow for a trinitarian Creator (ie” ommitance of the the holy name for terms like Lord, Hashem, Adonai, God, etc..) but to say due to this that suddenly the Quran, which is made up from original scriptures, as we discussed already, is the new bible… this is the same as saying the bible is out yet 1/2 of the same bible is in, “lets add some things to the half that is out and now that that half is out lets put it back in,” do you see what I mean? The Quran is about half or more of the Bible.
I know you know your Islam history my brother, so go back and see how the original writing by Mohamed would later be added to by a more orthodox theology that many have credited to the rise of Alchaida, is that not man made doctrine?, does that mean that the Quran is no more a valid instrument for Muslims? Look at the Taliban and there extremist views (that of Sharia Law) another example… the atrocities that are done in the name of the Creator make my skin crawl.”
Do you see where I am going with this? The Judeo Christian religion has suffered the same sort of reality. That of the Crusades, where countless innocents where killed in the name of, what they had already coined God (HORENDOUS!!! HOW DARE THEM), or the Spanish inquisition (HOW COULD THEY!!!), an so forth… all these things were a result of man-made doctrine my brother, both religions are not exempt from it.
That said, is the Quran less valid because of these things? Is the Hebrew Bible, which the Quran is mirrored after, less viable? I will let you answer that my brother.
The writings of YHVH to man, the Tanahk and the New Covenant, are and will continue to instruct, correct, edify ,etc… and man allowing, for he has already provided…. may we save ourselves from ourselves is the motif. Knowing the Quran has its foundation on this tenant, I do not see why then that should not be the case either.
Though writings in the Quran and the Bible have suffered redactations and translations, they retain the same message my friend, they speak of a coming Messiah and the end of an evil that only that Messiah, who is backed by His Father can accomplish, that in that we who will dedicate our lives to that truth can then find certain eternal peace along with those that have already earned it. In Messiah we are all worthy to earn it, but we do have to earn it.
The changes that you say have been done in the Bible are insignificantly small, yet it is true, and though they have allowed for some confusion, the Judeo-Christian Faith continues to grow… I think what you are trying to say is that it is significant that man has confused the body of Messiah, or that we have allowed for that confusion, not the Bible. I am a product of the same book you say does not lead people to do the right thing, however, I dont eat pig, I keep the Shabbat, I do not commit adultery, I do not steal, etc… even more so… I am celibate because I am not married… :o) And though I am not perfect, I am aware that I am not something that scripture has helped me to see. So you see, I base my belief in the Bible as the original message to man, yet you say the Bible has lost that ability to do this? No my brother, man has given in to the devil within, he has decided to depart from the original inspired word, a Creator derived book that lives within those that apply themselves to its pages… the bible can not be defined as a failure because in man, the devil within does. What you are talking to is called successionism, an evangelical (also Christian) movement that cancels out the Tanahk (OT) in place of the New covenant (NT)… I would agree that way too many Chrsitians are living that reality and need to learn that one can not exist without the other… as you quoted, Y’Shua said he did not come to abolish the prophets or the law, he came to fulfill them… that in itself speaks of a union and not a separation such as successionism does. I pray for us all, in Y’Shua.
Remember, the Bible says that 4 tribes of 12, which total 100% Israel (YHVH’s Chosen), are from the gird of Ishmael. We are all one people if we follow His commandments :o)
His word, in Y’shua, that all the prophets agree, Amein.
The good news? more and more followers of the Bible are getting it, they are realizing that in order to live the walk one has to walk the walk, as prescribed by our Heavenly Father in Y’Shua the Messiah; he who we are called to emulate…
Shalom as always and thanks for sharing.
By the way Brother Seeking Truth,
I made a mistake on the Mesha Stele dating, somehow I said 1400 bc (thats wrong – I am glad I saw it) it dates back to about 850 BC (the time of Omri, King of Israel in 1 Kings.). Shalom.
Hi Rams,
Where does it say that 4 out of 12 tribes of Israel are from Ishmael? This is the first I hear of this claim.
Ishmael had 12 sons/tribes.
Jacob had 12 sons/tribes from which the 12 tribes of Israel came. Which sons of Jacob are Ishmaelites???
Brother Rams,
My apology for the late response as sometimes my works require me to travel but thankfully this time it’s just a day trip.
Thank you for the input but, I think you are missing my point…. As I said sometimes we miss the tree from the forest and this normally happen when we have information overload. When we have information overload, then we need to get back to the basics. To get back to the basics, we need to understand how God convey his message to mankind in the first place. I know this may sound elementary to you but please stay with me and hopefully, you will see where I am coming from.
God sent His messages in phases and at each phase He appoints a Messenger to convey His message to the people of that time. God knows that if He sent His complete message in one go, the people will not be able to bear it and the people will miss the key message and the simplicity of His message. As in John 16:12-14 when Jesus said “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth….’ and you know the rest of this verse.
It may take God hundred of years to convey His complete Message to mankind but one thing we can be guaranteed of is that His message or Commands will be absolute and consistent throughout the Ages. To illustrate what I mean by ‘absolute and consistent throughout the Ages’, we can say that whatever we study in our early years of our education journey will still hold true when we graduated from College/University ie. if we learnt that 1+1=2 in our very first Class, it will still be true in our 2nd Class, 3rd Class and so on until we completed our studies. That simple Law is absolute and consistent throughout our learning years. Similarly, so are God’s Laws..if God’s Laws are not absolute and consistent thru time, then they cannot be from God, they are man-made laws. We must be able to recognise this so that we are not deceived.
In your own words “..the original scriptures have seen some modification, mostly key words that better allow for a trinitarian Creator..” reflect how Mankind “mix falsehood with the truth (the original texts) and conceal the truth while they know it” The Creator is One and Only (old texts) but the early Christian Churches change the texts (man interference) to ‘better allow for a trinitarian Creator’. Why need to do this? Who gave them the rights to do this ? This is like someone taking the Harry Potter book, decide to make Harry Potter a girl, maintained the main story lines, make changes to certain texts to support this new ‘Harry Potter is a girl’ belief, and then market it back to the public as the original ! In general, these are ‘insignificantly small changes’ as the way you put it, but in reality, it has stray away from the truth. There is a saying that ‘if you continuously tell the same lies, after a while that lies will be accepted as the truth’. Some governments are doing just that.
To answer your question “Is the Hebrew Bible, which the Quran is mirrored after, less viable? Of course not. As I said in my previous post, the Quran was sent down to rectify the texts that was corrupted by mankind, NOT to replace what is already true. If the Hebrew Bible is the original Bible (God-inspired), then that explained why the Quran is mirrored after it. God, thus, maintained the truth from the Bible, rectified the corrupted texts from the Bible and send it back (as the Holy Quran) to His Last Messenger, to convey, for all Mankind.
Rams, my brother, I am not here for a contest to see who’s religion is better, but to present my views on what I know from studying both the Quran and the Bible. Its really up to you, or the readers, to accept the logics in my comments.
May the One and Only God Bless us and guide us to the true and straight path.
Brother Rams,
To continue from where I left of…
When I read more of your comments, I realized that you have the impression that other Islamic writings that came out after the Quran are continuation of the Quran or replacement to the Quran. This is evident in your comments “….go back and see how the original writing by Mohamed would later be added to by a more orthodox theology that many have credited to the rise of Alchaida, is that not man made doctrine?, does that mean that the Quran is no more a valid instrument for Muslims? Look at the Taliban and there extremist views (that of Sharia Law) another example… the atrocities that are done in the name of the Creator make my skin crawl.” … I wish to correct you here so that you have a correct view of the Muslims and I hope you take it positively. Similarly, please correct me too if I have presented negative views of the Christians. Firstly, if you see any reports in the web or anywhere else that say ‘writing by Muhammad’ then you can be sure its not true. Prophet Muhammad is illiterate, he cannot read or write. I mentioned this in my earlier comments. Secondly, The Holy Quran is the main and only Book that the Muslims believe contains Words spoken by God and all true Muslims from the time the Quran was first sent till today, live and abide by. All the other Islamic writings after the Quran are man-inspired and NOT continuation or replacement to the Quran. The ‘Hadiths’ are compilations of how the Prophet lives, his sayings, and his interaction with the people of that time. These are written by the Prophet’s close friends and they are not part of the Quran. Muslims read the ‘Hadiths’ because they want to emulate the Prophet. The Quran was sent to the Prophet in Arabic, and today, the Quran is still in Arabic. If it’s not in Arabic, its not the Quran. The contents have not changed since it first came into existence 1400 years ago. All Muslims, irrespective of their Nationality or race, recite the Quran in Arabic. There are many translation books of the Quran but that’s what they are… just translations of the Quran, they are not the Quran. If you go to any mosque in the world, be it in China, Russia or even in New York, you will find the Quran kept there will be in Arabic. Sure, you’ll see the translation books too but that is to help those who don’t speak Arabic to understand the Quran. Muslims are encouraged to memorise the Quran, just as the Prophet did so, its not surprising today to find millions of Muslims around the world has memorized the whole Quran even at the age as young as 10 years old. Because of this, its difficult for any Muslims clergyman of the early days or today to change or remove a text form the Quran, as firstly, its in Arabic and thus if a text is changed, the whole meaning of the verse will be different and secondly, someone will know its not the original text because many people has memorized the Quran, even during the times of the Prophet.
Lastly, I hope you don’t mix the views of the extremists such as the Talibans as the general view of all true Muslims. Their laws have stray away from the Quran teachings. These extremists may call themselves Muslims, but their actions (of killing innocent lives any destroying properties) are more of emotions to satisfy their own personal goals. They said they acted in the name of God as they want Muslims around the world to support their cause. Any true and rational Muslim will reject their cause which is centered around hatred.
May the One and Only God Bless us and guide us to the true and straight path.
Shalom Pricilla,
How are you!!! WOw!!! Thank you for catching this very important misquote on my part. My memory was clearly in the wrong, I am not sure what I was thinking, you are great!!!. I went back into my notes (on bible) and found that of the four tribes that helped Gideon (the 5th Judge – re: in Judges 7: 23 – 24) they in fact were not Ishmaelites, instead, they were Israelites that helped Gideon defeat Ishmaelites (Midianites) that had been oppressing Israel… incredible, this is why we are called to congregate!!!.
Gideon called them Ishmaelites for they wore gold nose rings (not something YHVH would approve of). Bible says Gideon asked the Israelite men for nose rings of gold from loot taken off the defeated Ishmaelites (J 8:24)… and they gave them to Judge Gideon; somehow I confused the four tribes of Israel as the ones giving him their own gold nose rings, which in retrospect makes sense, for if the Ishmaelites wore gold nose rings, then that must mean.. well you get the idea. Naphtali, Manasseh, Asher and Ephraim were the four tribes that helped Gideon. Bottom line, I was wrong!!! You saved me my friend, I cant thank you enough. I take my studies very seriously, and since I do not get out much I seldom have an opportunity to talk with other committed students of Elohim’s word, I can’t thank you enough.
In Judges 8:23 Judge Gideon declines an offer from Israel to rule over them upon winning battle against Midianites, to which he replies, “YHVH is the one who will rule over you”. Just after this Gideon asks men of Israel only for gold nose rings from the BOOTY TAKEN, adding the GOLD NOSE RINGS worn by the ISHMAELITES. I’ll make sure to point this error out to Seeking Truth, but since he also seeks truth I am sure he is reading it :o). Thank you soooo much… please do not stop asking and checking :o) This is a blessing. :o)
Shalom brother, I have to run but quickly,
My appologies if I have offended you with truth, what I said about one religion I said about the other, I did not single out atrocities only in one. Though it has already been deleted here, I also took mention to the atrocities coming out of the Christian Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition (yet you do not show this part of my quote?) why, this does not add to your argument it takes from it, the truth is what matters. I am afraid I do not understand when you say the Quran is only spoken in Arabic, that may be so in Arabia or in Arabs, this was also true of the Catholic Church until the protestant reformation, they only spoke the word in Latin and though it is originally written in Hebrew and Arabic language, both the Quran and Bible have been translated to English and other languages for the reading of many, The Bible is still recited in it’s original language as well, memorized and spoken by the Jews, yet the Jews are not mentioned?. By saying that because the Quran is read in Arabic has nothing to do, with all due respect, with faith and commitment to God-inspired words, as is true of Muslims speaking the words in English or French, or Suahili, or whatever other language. That the Quran teaches that to speak it’s words in Arabic destinguishes it as a faithful religion that is for Islam to decide? In the Bible faith is demonstrated in works.
History must count for something my brother, to say that the Quran was written about the 7th century and spoken in Arabic and later in diverse languages… is a fact of History. To say that the words of the Quran are less significant if spoken in any other language? I will let you answer that one. My point is I am not sure what language has to do with our Heavenly Father, maybe you can further explain that. I agree Mohamed did not write the Quran, his scribes did, for Mohamed was illiterate. Because a scribe writes words from a prophet it does not imply that the prophet is either literate or not, it is the prophets words that are wirtten, as such the prophet wrote the words – is my point. Even if the prophet were mute, he would find some way (ie: sign language or learning how to write) to get the message down. Mohamed had scribes.
The bottom line is, that I respectfully disagreee with your view that what applies to the Bible does not apply to the Quran, meaning history shows that man’s dealings have misrepresented the Creator. At the end brother, I am sure we can agree the Bible you quote every once in a while says we should not take or add to it…. this is the line I can not cross, if I did I would be faithless. I am and always have been open to growth in our Heavenly Father, that to me means growth in His message. If and when someone tries to tell me that that message has somehow been replaced with a holier one, this is what you are telling me, this I can not believe. I am the first one to say I am wrong when I am wrong (please read my reply to Pricilla above), this is called humility.
Please do not think I have anything against you or for that matter Islam, I am only speaking history here, truth that has been documented and unfolded before all our eyes. Man tries to highjack religion, to say different is to not say the truth. That is the approach I have to religion, for as I said before, we have proven to fall short of perfection, in all our endeavors. That said, we have hope in Y’Shua, that we may better ourselves along that path… this is my belief, this is what I live, Amein. Shalom.
Hi Seeking Truth,
Did you see my post with the websites? You don’t have to tell me whether you looked at them or not – it was only for your information. I would just like to know if you saw them.
Thank you.
Rams, my brother,
Don’t worry about it….I am not offended by truth, only by untrue statements and misconceptions. My apology as I didn’t realized that today, the Bible is still recited in it’s original language which I assume in Hebrew, by today Christians across the world. Thank you for correcting me there.
I was having another long reply to your latest comments, but decided to stop here as we are not going anywhere with it. But before I go, I just want to comment on why the Quran is recited in Arabic language, not only in the Middle East, but across the world. The Quran is said to contain original words from God and thus one can expect the words and the way the sentences are structured to be unique..something you will never expect from man. To appreciate this, one must recite it in Arabic language as other languages will not be able to capture the uniqueness of the sentence. A small example is palindrome. Palindrome is a word that you can spell forward or backward eg. Racecar, Bob. As an example, there is a sentence in the Quran which mean more or less ‘Declare in the Name of your Lord..’ and this sentence when written in Arabic is a palindrome. Finding palindrome in a word is hard enough, but a whole sentence ? .The Quran is filled with.palindromes. You don’t have to respond to this as it’s not meant to challenge the Bible or your faith..
Pricilla, thanks for the links and I did see the videos. But trust me, any “ex-Muslims” who said they do not know Jesus when they are Muslims, are not Muslims in the first place.
Wishing the Best and always in good health to both of you. Hope you will view all my comments as a source of information and not as a challenge to your beliefs as I view all your comments in the same light.
Gosh, this posting is still long, isnt it ??
May the One and Only God Blees us and guide us to the true and straight path.
We are men of faith, more so than that, brothers in Abraham; I pray one day may prove to unite us all in one message, one of redemption from ourselves, salvation as offered through the example of Y’Shua, that the Father be glorified. Shalom brother… and as you say, “May the One and Only God Blees us and guide us to the true and straight path.” and as I say, “May we bless Him that we be blessed.” Shalom.
Interestings !! Hope SeekingTruth will continue to post his/her views here as I find some truth in what he’s/she’s saying. It makes you think. Shalom.
Shabbat Shalom Jim,
Seeking Truth and I agree that Y’Shua is a prophet, where we differ is that he is the Messiah… Our conversation on the matter was lengthy, maybe you saw it it all?; it has been deleted: Shabbat Shalom Jim, may His day of rest bring all much peace and strength in Elohim’s truth, Amein.
Rams,
Nothing has been deleted. Under the comments and above “Speak Your Mind”, you have “Older Comments”. Press on that and you will see all the other comments – more than 300.
Shabat Shalom rams,
By ‘Messiah’, don’t it means messenger or by ‘Messiah’ you mean Y’shua is a God? I’m a bit confused when you said “Seeking Truth and I agree that Y’Shua is a prophet, where we differ is that he is the Messiah”. I’m sorry for asking all these questions as Im not much into religion as you and SeekingTruth. Yes, I just read all the comments by both of you. I am not favoring anyone here but seekingTruth did presented a lot of logical facts which we cannot ignore just bcos we do not share the same faith as his. You too made a logical fact about the scribe wrote words from the prophet so the words written are from the prophet. Shalom.
Hello Jim, Shalom to you and yours.
Messiah means “Anointed One”, where brother Seeking Truth and I disagree is that Y’Shua (Jesus’s Hebrew Name) was not a Messiah. The Muslim religion sees Y’Shua as an important prophet as such believe Y’Shua is significant, they just don’t see him as the Messiah. The prophets that Islam quotes are the same prophets that are mentioned in original scriptures, many of which profecy Y’Shua, David’s lineage, as YHVH’s Messiah (or Annointed One). My friend is a Muslim. I respect His religion and him but strongly disagree that the Quran, which was written in the 7th century somehow replaces original scriptures that were written 1000 BC(the earliest physical [Archeological] record of Hebrew scriptures we have dates back to +- 200 BC – the dead sea scrolls). I am not religious, but for some years now have been busy trying to weed through biblical research in order to get closer to true biblical understanding. I agree with him that much of Christianity is not doing what they should but in no way does that mean that I believe that cancels out the very same scripture that the Quran duplicates in many ways. History proves that ALL religion, including Islam, have imperfection, no different to that of man. If we are smart we are on a path to bettter that imperfection, as I have come to understand it, a Messianic approach is the way to go. I believe Elohim is the creator of all, and Y’Shua His Annointed Messiah, mankinds guide to eternal salvation.
Closing note: Having studied allot of science and scripture, I also believe both agree with eachother more than most feel comfortable with. I believe that to hide certain truths can be destructive, and since I am not called to win a popularity contest, I speak up what I know, and always humbled to my imperfections… I love it when people check on what I write, for if I am wrong I am the first one that ones to know… corrections are important and bound to happen for us all.
Shalom my friend and brother, I am glad to see you as well are seeking, in Y’Shua, Amein.
Jim_M,
Thanks for having ‘an open mind’ to my comments. My instinct tell me you are not a Muslim, perhaps a Christian ? a Buddist ?
Brother Rams,
Again I wish to correct you in your response to Jim_M about ‘the Messiah’. Again, you misquoted me and made assumptions on what I meant. I really hope you read my comments slowly and not just ‘glance thru’ as you tend to misquote me when you do this.
Never once (you can check all my previous comments) did I say Muslims never believe Jesus is the Messiah. Maybe I never commented in detail about the ‘Messiah’ so, if you allow me, let me give my comments about the ‘Messiah’.
Every prophet of God is an anointed one of God, Muslims, like the Christians, believe the title “Messiah” is exclusively reserved for Jesus, the son of Mary. We can say that the title ‘Messiah’ stands for any one who has been chosen by God for a significant mission. In Judaism that mission was the restoration of the line of King David, and the establishment of the Law of God on earth. Christians, on the other hand, believe the title ‘ Messiah’ is related to their concept of the Atonement of the Original Sin by the Son of God. To them, the Messiah is a Savior who suffers and dies for saving sinful man from eternal punishment in hell. This is where Muslims and Christians differ, not on the title but on the concept of Messiah. Muslims accept the Jewish belief that there were prophecies about the coming of the Messiah. They accept the Christian claim that Jesus of Nazareth, son of Mary was the expected Messiah, but the Muslims reject the Christian concept of Messiah as the Son of God, who was to be crucified to atone for man’s Original Sin.
May the One and Only God Bless us and guide us to the true and straight path.
The difference between all the other religions and Christianity is that in all the other religions the man has to save himself by doing good deeds, whereas in Christianity God is the one that saves man – and not man himself.
From the beginning, with Adam and Eve, God showed that blood had to be spilled for payment for sin. Adam and Eve tried to do it by themselves (man trying to save himself), and all they could come up with was the perishable fig leaves to cover themselves (Gen. 3:7). God made them coverings of endurable material – of animal skin – which shows probably the first sin sacrifice in the creation (Gen. 3:21). GOD saved them with the blood of an animal so they could cover their sin more suitably. It was GOD’s doing, NOT MAN’s doing. Man’s doing was not enough to satisfy God.
In Leviticus, the sacrifices for sin were explained in detail and the animals had to be without blemish – signifying “without sin”. Someone sinful could not have taken the place of a sinful man and wipe out the sinful man’s sin. Sin cannot wipe out sin or cover sin. It had to be the blood of a clean, unblemished animal. These sacrifices were SYMBOLIC of what God would do later on according to his plan. These sacrifices went on until Jesus came. When Jesus died (as God’s son, he was without sin), and RESURRECTED – for there were witnesses to his resurrection – the sacrifices stopped soon after and have not returned for 2,000 years – and they won’t because Jesus was the last and LASTING sacrifice for our sins. His blood was not tainted with sin and thus he is our perfect sacrifice. All we have to do is believe in this sacrifice for our sin. When we repent of each of our sins as the Holy Spirit enlightens us, and turn away from it, we don’t need to do anything – Jesus already did it for us.
Now, good deeds do come into this but not for our salvation. We should do good – to and for others – in order to receive our treasures in heaven when we get there. We should do good deeds – not to be saved but to receive our “rewards” so to say (Rev.22:12 Jesus is talking about those who belong to him – not about those who trust in their own salvation by doing good deeds.) Who does much good deeds, will have much treasures. Who does little, will have little treasure.
If a man sins, he can never do enough good deeds to earn eternal life in heaven. The sin has to disappear so God will not see it. If we put our sin on the weight scale (let’s say murder – and that is only one sin, whereas we sin tens and hundreds of times per day), how much good deeds are needed for the HOLY God who HATES sin, not to see our sin or numerous sins? If we measure out sin against the good deeds, he will always see sin on one side and the good deeds on the other side. The sin will always be there for him to see.
But if Jesus’ blood covers us – or washes/erases our sin away – then God won’t see any sin in us. If we believe in Jesus, we belong to him. And if we belong to him, Jesus will say to God “These are mine. I paid for their lives with my life and they belong to me.” God will be satisfied with his son’s payment.
All the “anointed” prophets, including Muhammad, were just men and even they need to be washed in the blood of the Son of God to stand sinless before God. In fact, even Mary needs Jesus’s blood for her salvation (I know Catholics think she was born in a special way – but as I mentioned before, they needed a goddess for the pagans, so they credited her with birth that was not as all humans.)
I apologize if I have offended anyone – that was not my goal. In my youth, I used to study all religions – some more deeply than others, but no one gave me the hope of eternal life as Jesus did. I somehow knew that I will always sin and that no amount of doing good would pay for my sins. That used to scare me to death. Jesus took that fear away.
There is so much to say and STUDY on this subject, I am afraid that here we can only exchange bits and pieces. I pray that God will give us a desire to search out more of HIS truth and that the Holy Spirit will be the light to our feet and lead us in the right direction.
One more thing. I talked in the above post about the need of blood to cover our sins. It was not my idea, but God’s.
Leviticus 17:11-13: For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement for the life. Therefore I have said to the people of Israel, “No person among you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger who sojourns among you eat blood. Any one also of the people of Israel, or of the strangers who sojourn among them, who takes in hunting any beast or bird that may be eaten shall pour out its blood and cover it with earth.”
(I am sure there are a few more verses in the Bible which show that blood is needed for atonement of our sins. If need be, I will look them up.)
Here God says that blood is the LIFE of a creature and of the man. And only BLOOD makes atonement for our souls. Atoning BLOOD for sinful BLOOD – that is to say, LIFE for LIFE. If we sin, in order for us to live and not die (spiritually and forever) we need another to give his life for ours. In the beginning, it was the symbolic animal blood. Even with Adam and Eve. Now it is the blood of Jesus, Son of God.
Shalom my brother,
Are we talking about the same thing here? are we talking about the Messiah, the Anointed One of Israel? Are we talking about the only one Messiah that the Bible takes mention too? or are we talking about man’s definition of same. I do not care to misquote you, so let me be very careful with my words… this is what you just said and my reply to same in brackets below:
“Never once (you can check all my previous comments) did I say Muslims never believe Jesus is the Messiah. Maybe I never commented in detail about the ‘Messiah’ so, if you allow me, let me give my comments about the ‘Messiah’.
Every prophet of God is an anointed one of God, Muslims, like the Christians, believe the title “Messiah” is exclusively reserved for Jesus, the son of Mary. We can say that the title ‘Messiah’ stands for any one who has been chosen by God for a significant mission.”
“Every prophet of God is an anointed one of God, Muslims”
[so all prophets are Messiah’s”?] or
“Muslims [maybe this word doesn’t belong here not sure], like the Christians, believe the title “Messiah” is exclusively reserved for Jesus, the son of Mary.”
[Does this mean that Muslim’s and Chrsitians, or only Christians, believe the term Messiah is exclusively for Y’Shua] And last part of your words;
“We can say that the title ‘Messiah’ stands for any one who has been chosen by God for a significant mission.”
[No need to elaborate here]
I think what you are trying to say, correct me if I have misunderstood, is that anyone can be a Messiah, including YShua?
I am not misquoting you my brother, and if I have please point me to the misquote so I can clarify or rectify the error… truth be said, no different to sister Pricilla’s words, you are confusing me.
What I understood from the above is that you telling the reader 3 things, 1. all prophets are Messiah’s 2. Only Y’Shua, Son of Mary is “exclusively” the Messiah, and 3. Messiah means anyone that has been chosen by Elohim (God)… I am only stating what I believe you have said in your own words my brother, I pray I am not misquoting you AGAIN, but if so please let me know.
Now to the Bible… truth is in the Bible there is never ANYWHERE a statement that says prophets are Messiah’s with one exception, (you can do a multiple Bible-version search at bible.com) as found in the Darby Bible in the book of Daniel 9:25-26, which refers to the prophetic return of the Messiah (A revelation / messianic prophecy). There are many cases of people / men that where anointed, but for varying different purposes (ie: prophethood, kingship, etc.. in all cases they were anointed by other men), however, none of them are called Messiah’s. In fact they are distingusihable from the one true Messiah in sin… ie” David committed adultery and 1st degree murder but according to your faith he is a prophet and Messiah… maybe what needs to be done is to make the M and m for certainly an anointing of Father can not have sin involved, right?. Does that sound like something our heavenly Father, knower of all would anoint, stand behind himself?… in one answer no, David was anointed by a man, a prophet called Samuel, who though was a prophet was still a man, imperfect in his ways.
The premise of the Christian belief is not that Y’Shua comes from David’s blood line but that he comes from David’s bloodline, a man that loved our heavenly Father but suffered from imperfection as we all do, to prove that man can overcome sin, and the reason why the prophets refer to Y’Shua as the unblemished sacrificial Lamb; he was not just another anointed man, a prophet, this is what Islam would have us believe. The term Messiah, as used in the Bible refers to THE ANOINTED ONE not just any anointed one… as such when used in Bible it is referring to the one and only Messiah, that among many things, was a prophet over all prophets, a teacher, a father, a friend, a healer, a perfect sacrifice unlike others.
Prophets would also prove to be false prophets. One example that comes to mind is that of Balaam in Numbers 22… he was a prophet yet he turned out to be a false prophet.
I respect that you want to say that all prophets are Messiah’s, but that is not what the Bible says.
We are highly regarded in the eyes of Y’Shua, He that said “Forgive Them for they know not what they do”, to the Father. If not for that I am not sure what would be of my life. Shalom.
Amein Pricilla, Amein,
I agree wholeheartedly that is what scripture says, that regardless of what sin, for all have sinned and fallen short of the Father, that regardless of level of sin, we can be washed by the blood of the sinless Y’Shua; that we have to make that choice is true and that when we do he calls us to follow in his steps… that is also true. I agree with you, one can not be washed of sin in the eyes of the Father if not through the perfect unblemished example of our Messiah, the anointed King of Israel, our Savior. praises be His for ever and ever, in Y’Shua, Amein. :o) Thank you.
4TH COMMANDMENT
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
WHICH DAY IS THE SABBATH DAY ?
Shalom Kenol,
The best study I have seen on this comes from a renowned author and teacher… he sells nothing. Here is the link http://vimeo.com/20911787
The Shabbat was a very normal occurrence for those that followed Jewish customs then, no different to those that follow holiday customs today, as such it is a give-in and not repetitive through the NT, but you are right to ask for in time calendars have changed. I like to research back to the days Y’Shua walked the earth, after all he is our Messiah. The link I provided above is the best explanation I have heard. All the best and much shalom to you and yours brother.
To Kenol;
Just to add:
What I mean by “he sells nothing” is that he does not run a business like ministry, as a matter of fact I am not sure I could call it a ministry by today’s standards… one can however donate, or if one wants to purchase a Hebrew Aramaic Translation of Scripture one can. Shalom
@ Kenol
Saturday is the 7th day of the week. I try to keep it but sometimes I fail and I ask God to forgive me. I try to keep all of the commandments, but the law will not save us. We are saved by faith and the grace and mercy of God. We cannot save ourselves.
Brother Rams,
Again you misinterpret me when you commented ‘I think what you are trying to say, correct me if I have misunderstood, is that anyone can be a Messiah, including YShua? ‘ I did not say ‘anyone’ but ‘Every prophet of God is an anointed one of God’ ..and if messiah means anointed one then yes, every prophets is the messiah of God…and why not ? If so chosen by God. Maybe you are right …maybe we are talking about ‘The Messiah’ yet, our definition of ‘messiah’ is different.
I have said in one of my earlier postings, that the Muslims believe that Jesus is one of, if not, the Greatest Prophet of them all and that no Muslim is a true Muslim if he do not believe in Jesus’ teachings. In that context, I will agree with you that while every prophet of God is an anointed one (messiah) of God, Jesus is the Anointed One of God. What the Muslims and Christians disagree is the concept that the Christians relate the Messiah to God-like status or Son of God while the Muslims do not.
Your comments (and Pricilla’s) have made me understand better why the Christians believe what they believe and for that I say Thank you’. I love Jesus as much as you do… maybe not to the level of worshipping him as God but I do know that I’m praying everyday to the same God that Jesus himself pray to.
With that said, I think lets leave this as it is.. between us, we had a good exchange of information but nevertheless, you have your faith and beliefs, which I respected, and I have my faith and beliefs.
May the One and Only God Bless us and guide us to the true and straight path.
My brother,
I am saddened that I can not explain myself well enough to express to you that this love you have for Y’Shua is not misplaced. There must be a reason why you seek truth and more so than that that visit the original writings inspired by our Creator. He does not change His word my brother, man does. I am hear if you ever need to discuss more.
Remember, Elohim says he is plural (Genesis 3:22 and other I quoted). These words are not my words and though a difficult concept to understand maybe, He says this and more, where within that plurality he includes Y’shua who is given to us as our access (the Messiah) to Him, a message that is etched in His original writings, the Holy Bible.
I study Messianism, a Christian belief that predates the modern Church. In that I believe all Y’Shua said, not a word less or more. I have only tried to share those words with you.
Much shalom and may His calling offer you much peace in truth. Ramiro.
Hello SeekngTruth,
To answer your queston, a Christian, not by choice. By that I mean, born into a Christian family. We are what we are ‘cos our parents are Christians, Muslims or Buddist, right? Some accept what they are and some will do some soul-searchings like me, so I am open-minded to all your comments and others too, like Rams.
Thank You.
Brother Rams,
I am saddened too by my failure to make you see the simplicity of God’s Message in the complexity of all the knowledge and information that we received.
I totally agreed with your comment ‘He does not change His word my brother, man does.’ And ironically, in posting #50, you commented ‘..the original scriptures have seen some modification, mostly key words that better allow for a trinitarian Creator..’ So, can you really say, in all honesty, that today’s Bible that millions of Christians refer to is still the unchanged Words of God when you yourself has said the original scriptures have seen some modification ? ..and here we go again..back and foth.. so, brother Rams, as I said, lets just leave it as it is, you have your faith and beliefs, which I respected, and I have my faith and beliefs. So, I will just stop here and move on.
May the One and Only God Bless us and guide us to the true and straight path.
Kenol,
Sabbath is the 7th day of the week = Saturday. It was instituted by God in the beginning of the Creation. It is written in stone not on some perishable material. On Sabbath everything and everybody should rest – man, animals, slaves (who are “man” also – let’s not forget that) – whoever has breath in his body. It is a day of rest.
Sabbath – or Shabat, in Hebrew – is a root of words like: striking (from work), sitting – in both cases pointing to “not working”.
Sunday was in the beginning a memorial for the day on which Jesus resurrected. In the beginning, all the believers kept the Sabbath, but with time the Catholic Church changed the day of worship to Sunday. It was written on paper – perishable material.
Sabbath should continue to be the day of rest – God’s rest, and Sunday can be a memorial day for Jesus’ resurrection. But Sunday can not be Saturday (Sabbath).
George,
Nobody can keep all the commandments – but we sure have to try. The Law will not save us, but it will help keep us out of jail.
You say “We are saved by faith and the grace and mercy of God.” Yes, but if we sin knowingly – that is, we do not repent and turn away from that sin of which we are aware of – it’s like throwing that sin in God’s face every time we commit it over and over again. 1 John 3:6, 3:9; 1 John 5:18, and especially Heb. 10:26. Not many Christians like these verses because it is like holding a mirror to them – and they are not willing to give up their sin, but mistakenly think that God will overlook their sin. So, is God sending his Holy Spirit to show us our sin so that we can continue in it, or so we can repent and stop with that particular sin?
Yes, there are sins that are hard to stop, but we must try. And even if we stop and then backslide, we still have to repent and stop doing it, and go on our pilgrim’s way through this world, leaning on the grace and mercy of God through Jesus Christ. If we do this continually, in the end we will stop backsliding in that particular sin and not do it again. We would have conquered that sin and not sin us. There is a saying: If at first you do not succeed, TRY, TRY again. We cannot throw our sin in God’s face and ask for mercy every time. It would be like committing adultery over and over again, and saying to God “We are not saved by your law just by your grace and mercy. So, please forgive me while I continue to commit adultery again.” We can, though, ask God to give us the strength so that next time we feel tempted, we will say “NO!!!!”
Nobody said it is an easy road for a Christian to walk until he gets to heaven. In fact, it says that the road is hard and narrow. It is a war against the spiritual enemy. We either serve him or God.
Jim_M
You cannot be a Christian “not by choice”. If you are born into a Christian family, it does not make you automatically a Christian.
You say “We are what we are ‘cos our parents are Christians, Muslims or Buddist, right?” NOT RIGHT!!! Is Christianity, Islam, Buddhism some sort of DNA that is passed on to our offspring? NO!!
Each one of us is born FREE TO CHOOSE which way to go and what or whom to believe – and it has nothing to do with the family we are born in.
So, do not sound apologetic that your family is Christian and that you have “no choice” in the matter. It is not accurate.
Pricilla,
I didn’t have much chance before to read your latest comments about ‘sins and Jesus’ blood washing all sins’ in details, but now that I have read, I begin to understand why Christians are what they are today, and it make me more stronger in my own faith and belief. Thank you.
May the One and Only God Bless us and guide us to the true and straight path.
Seeking Truth,
“I begin to understand why Christians are what they are today”
I don’t understand what you mean – it doesn’s sound very good.
Pricilla,
I’m sorry. I did not mean it to sound like I’m saying the Christians are bad or any of that sorts. Its just about faith and belief. Your strength in your faith is what you believe in the Bible and my strength in my faith is what I believe in the Quran. Its just sad to see the Christians and Muslims drifted apart when the two beliefs actually originated from the same teaching and that can be found in the very 1st Commandment itself.
Anyway, as I told brother Rams, lets leave it as it is, you have your faith and beliefs, which I respected, and I have my faith and beliefs.
May the One and Only God Bless us and guide us to the true and straight path.
Seeking Truth,
Yes, it’s getting a bit tiresome – we really had a long discussion and I think we really did grind the subject enough. I just didn’t understand what you meant and am glad that everything is explained.
We will have to wait and see… Wishing you all the best!!!
@ Steve Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved, and your house.
Isaiah 64:6 And we are all become as one unclean, and all our justices as the rag of a menstruous woman: and we have all fallen as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit;
We are all sinners and we cannot save ourselves. The narrow road is the one provided through Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 2:8-9, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Romans 10:10, “For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Repentance isn’t just a one time act. It is necessary to repent whenever one commits sins. Otherwise, one will live in sin and risk dying in it.
As long as you are not refusing to repent of any known sin, as long as you have a good relationship with God, and as long as you believe that salvation can only be obtained by grace, through faith, in our lord and savor Jesus Christ, then you can be certain that you are being saved.
George,
Did I say anything differently? Or are you just confirming what I said? I agree with all the references you wrote.
In addition, Jesus always said to the ones he healed, and to the woman caught in adultry “Go, and sin no more” or “Leave your life of sin”. He did not tell them “Go and continue sinning”. Which to me means, “Repent and sin no more” – at least in that sin in which you were caught and which was made known to you.
@Steve When I read your comment, I was uncertain if it was clear that I believe you must repent sins. I agree with your statements as well. We cannot say we believe and have faith yet continue to sin intentionally. We have all heard of people who go to Church and then live like the devil the rest of the time.
We have to recognize the will of God the Father. I was recently humbled by God because I was judging others and I was blind to my sin. God let me make a mistake (sin) and then showed me the light. Now, I am repentant of my sin and will judge no one even if their beliefs are not the same as mine.
Matthew 12:50 for whosoever shall do the will of my Father who is in the heavens, he is my brother, and sister, and mother.
I pray that the will of God the Father is made known to me and that I do His will and not mine. I believe God knows what is best for me and I do not question Him. I realize I am a sinner and will never claim that I am not. Only by the grace of God am I able to do His will at all. All praise and glory to God the most high.
Shalom Brother Seeking Truth,
One last time why dont we (your quote my reply)
“So, can you really say, in all honesty, that today’s Bible that millions of Christians refer to is still the unchanged Words of God when you yourself has said the original scriptures have seen some modification ?”
In one word yes when you look at the original that exists. The idea that some words have been changed is no different than what some understand certain words in the Quran to mean, after all the word is worth only what it means… ie: “Shariah law, or even Jihad” is not read the same by many, these are words that though reamin in the original form, have different meaning to many Muslims, I am sure you will agree.
You are correct and so is Pricilla, we have beat this to a pulp, the rest is clear, whatever clear means to each. Shalom. Rams
Steve,
Of course you’re right that “Each one of us is born FREE TO CHOOSE which way to go and what or whom to believe – and it has nothing to do with the family we are born in.” but how many of us really choose? Most of us will “choose” the faith that we grow up with ie. the faith of our parents ‘cos that seem the right thing to do. No Church-going Christian parents will be happy to see his son or daugther practise another faith and not many people are going to argue with their parents on the subject of faith. I think my parent will have a heart-attack and disown me if I told him I am going to drop Christianity and choose another faith.
John 8:41-45
IIthessalonians 2:9-12
Jim_M,
“Most of us choose the faith of our parents” – because, being human, that is what we have been brought up in and don’t think for ourselves. I have made so many mistakes in my life because I thought that is the way to do things – because I was, let’s say, “brainwashed”, by my religious environment. I grew up in a certain Christian denomination where everything was forbidden – or so it seemed to me. Now, looking back, I cynically say that it was even forbidden to “live” because everything was “No, you can’t”. On the other hand, the sins some of them lived in was called by them “weakness”. It was a way to quiet their guilty conscience. I saw all that and it really mixed me up about who God really was. On the other hand, other children grew up in that legalistic church and are there to this day. So I used to look at other religions, but they did not give me any answers – just like the “Christianity” that I knew.
The thing is, God is always calling us to himself and showing us the way. We just do not want to hear him. It took me 33 yrs. to hear him – and that, through TV, no less!!! and not through church or family. Before that, I converted even to another non-Christian faith, just so I could tell my parents to leave me alone, as I was not of their faith anymore. Like true parents, they continued to pray for me – and that is how true parents should react and not disown their children because they think differently from them. So for 15 yrs. they prayed for me until God in his mercy showed me the light and the true way. And it IS Jesus. Only, I did not go back to my parents’ church but God put me in a church where the people got together, studied and dissected the Bible and learned that there is no “right” church, even the one that we ourselves were attending – in fact, there could be even WRONG churches. There are no “perfect” churches because they are made up of sinners – someone said that the church is a hospital for sinners, and he is right. And Jesus is the great physician.
Of course, my parents were delighted that I had that personal experience with Jesus and that I was going to church – even if it wasn’t their church. On the contrary, talking to my parents (for they also grew up in that church and knew no other), they realized that what is important is that every one of us needs to have a live, personal “relationship” with God and not live a dead faith. They learned that the “weaknesses” ARE sins and that they should overcome them.
Each one of us has to make the decision for his life and how he is to follow God because each one of us will stand one day before God to answer to him how we have lived and why. We CANNOT say that our parents made us do something – they will be judged for the way they lived, but we will be judged only on what WE did and not what our parents did. So, you will have to study and search and choose by yourself, regardless of what your parents think or what they will do. By following God’s will for our life, we sometimes have to pay a heavy price, but Jesus is worth it – each step of the way.
Still, you cannot call yourself a Christian (even if “not by choice” – that is a conflicting statement, if I ever heard one, dear son), if you don’t believe that Jesus is the WAY, the TRUTH and the LFE.
May God show you the way to eternal life.
matthew 7:21-23
matthew:31-23 john 17:12 jude 4
find the lord follow his laws not the churches
yea Steve, it makes me wonder sometimes if the lord hates me or loves me you know a few months ago i put a dream i had when i was in Iraq up here about how we need to get back to following the laws of the lord. its funny i keep getting lead to about the lord fury his hate for for us, how he dont hear all our prayers.. it makes me wonder if the fallen angels really have a hold on us, i mean if the lord sends evil spirits to man, i loving lord would not do that to us you know.
Todd,
You know, I have a list of a few important things that I pray for. Out of that list, for now, only 2 have been answered and it took 5 years for each thing to happen – total of 10 years. I am talking about 2 big issues. Smaller issues get answered a little quicker – sometimes with “yes” and sometimes with “no”. But these 2 issues really took a long time, and this only leads me to believe that it had to take 5 years for one issue and 5 years for the other – first, to teach me patience and to learn to wait on God. And second, probably God knew the right time for things to happen. Maybe before that, they would not have happened so well as they have when they did happen.
Other prayers have been answered, and then still others have not. God knows what is best for us and WHEN it is best for us. And sometimes, he knows that what we are asking for will not be good for us in the future – even if we think that it will. We do not see the future and he does.
You must know that God loves us, and you probably know John 3:16-17, which shows how much he loves us. He would never do anything that would be bad for us. He would never send evil spirits on us – the evil spirits try (and sometimes succeed) in attacking us on their own. We have to ask God to protect us from these evil spirits, for him to put a fence of protection around us. We also have to fight them off ourselves – with God’s help, of course.
Even if God is furious with all the sin in this world, he still hears our prayers. But he has his own timing in answering us.
Todd, you may be sure that God does not hate you or any other human being. He hates sin but not the sinner. For the sinner he provided his son Jesus so that we can have eternal life through him. God LOVES you.
And you are right, we do need to keep God’s commandments. We need to obey him.
Hell Tod,
Thank you for your service son, I too am a veteran (USAF) but didn’t see war. I agree with Steve, yet I felt compelled to share with you, not to take from his words – for I agree with all his premise, just to share how I see the spirit.
Scripture tells us the spirit is a manifestation of something that is holy or not… meaning of the devil or God, and the reason why the word spirit can be Holy or evil. That implies that action needs to be taken before we can see the spirit manifesting itself (showing itself) as of God or not.
Horrible things happen to God fearing folks… I for example lost my only son to an auto accident only 3 years ago.
I do not follow the normal teaching that God’s spirit acts to somehow protect us through some sort of invisible power, and though He is known in scripture to have taken physical action, (ie: angels fighting for Israel, or the great flood, or that of miracles, etc…) that somehow this is how he works in our lives today. I have heard some say that God saved them, you know it may be tru, but I just as sure that they also had something to do with it, somehow. I am glad I felt that way back when my child died, for if not, I think I would have been very angry with my Heavenly Father. Throughout the years I have seen much destruction. As an ex firefighter and also a FEMA subcontractor I have seen enough catastrophe to know that these things are not a direct result of the wrath of God. No wonder so many do not want to get to know our Heavenly Father, this sort of message is not of God… the question then must be, who is it from then.
What I had come to understand is the belief that our Father gave us the ability to choose what is evil-spirit (such as manifested in people) or not; this is why Y’Shua (Jesus) tells us to follow in His steps, steps that are of complete and total surrender to the Fathers will, which is manifested as Holy Spirit.
As I see it, the devils spirit is not a mysterious energy that came to earth, such as dragged down with the fallen angels, God forbid there be unholy spirit in heaven, if not angels that decided to turn from the holy ways of God as such cast out of heaven, and therein the manifested evil spirits. Ultimately, the evil spirit we see around us is evil that is manifested by those who choose, the reason why scriptures warns us to not be in the company of evil spirit that we do not adopt same (It’s called conditioning). This is how I see the devil working, he exposes us to evil hoping that we accept it as normal, but this is not the case of those that read and practice the holy will of our heavenly Father, in time we see evil spirit easier and easier for what it is, a manifested reality.
The devil is said to be the ruler of the world, why? because many who live in the world have opted to follow his ways and not our Heavenly Fathers’. A good example is in much of what we see and hear coming from Hollywood in the form of movies and music… In todays’ world we see that this and man’s insistence on self indulgence has lead him away from his true potential to do incredible things in holy spirit. I could go on forever, and maybe I have. It’s just I feel very strongly about this topic, maybe it will help you to see another side of this picture. Whatever side you choose to adopt, I am happy to see that it is in love of the true and only hope for all of us. Shalom brother.
Again thank you for your service, may your continued love of our heavenly Father keep you safe, in obeservance of His will, faith saves, may his Will be done :o) Thank you.
Steve,
Thankyou for the links. Thats quite a lot of materials to cover ! I am sure it will be very informative and useful for me. I am interested in Islam more so ‘cos of its similarities to Christianity. I have also looked into Hinduism and Buddhism but not as much as my studies in Christinianity and Islam. The way I go about in finding the truth is to study Christianity from a Christian perspective (which I’m familiar with) and then from a Muslim perspective. Similarly, I study Islam from a Muslim perspective and then Islam from a Christian perspective. With the help of God, the truth will find me.
Once again, thank you, Steve.
to give the 10 commandments is very commendable, but without telling people the true sabbath is not giving people the opportunity to actually adhere to them. As Sunday is the first day of the week, people need to know that Saturday is the last day of the week. and this is the most important commandment. People need to look into the reason we now adhere to Sunday, Sunday is the exact opposite to what the Lord says yet people don’t understand the importance of it
Peter,
I would think that the FIRST commandment is the MOST IMPORTANT commandment, since God wrote it first also.
Saturday is a day or REST. (Exodus 20:12-15) Congregational worship can be done on any other day, including Saturday. The commandment does not tell us to meet as a congregation on that day.
In Deuteronomy 5:12-15 it says that the Jews should remember that God brought them out of Egypt on that day – which also means that they probably had no rest there and now God gave them a day of REST.
Exodus 31:15 it says: Whoever DOES ANY WORK on the Sabbath day is to be put to death. It does not say that whoever does not worship on Sabbath will be put to death.
Only in Leviticus 23:3 does it say that there should be “a day of sacred assembly” and it is totally pointing to Israelites, in this instance. Knowing how fickle they were and that if they did not have something that would bind them to the Sabbath, that they would probably forget it in time – God (or Moses interpreted it for them) told them that they had to meet on that day.
But nowhere in the list of STONE COMMANDMENTS does it say we have to meet on Saturday – it says that we have to REST on that day.
Peter,
I apologize. The right reference for the first mention of the 10 Commandments and the Sabbath is in Ex 20:8-11 and not verses 12-15.
Pricilla,
No, i never said that, I said people do not know that Saturday is the sabbath, Gods holy day,what I said was people think Sunday is the sabbath, you can assemble any day of the week, but so long as your feel don’t stray on the last day. Well people’s feet do stray, and if you ask any Christian what day is the sabbath they will say Sunday, and thats how mixed up people are, they do not know because no one tells them. People use A Saturday as any other day of the week and I’m afraid they’re wrong.
Peter,
Thanks. Still, it is not the MOST IMPORTANT commandment (“and this is the most important commandment” – your words).
I studied some more today and I came upon these verses, which do make me think it was especially for the Jews: Ex. 31:16-17 The ISRAELITES are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting COVENANT. It will be a SIGN between ME (God) and the ISRAELITES for ever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he RESTED and was REFRESHED.
I don’t mind adopting a day of REST so that I can be REFRESHED also for the week to come – and that goes for believers in God and also non-believers. We physically NEED the rest once a week so we can replenish our strength and go back into the world the following week.
On the other hand, Chrisitians who “keep” the Sabbath would make us believe that it should be a SPECIAL day of WORSHIP – which it was not meant to be – not for non-Jews, anyway.
Why do you say its not for non jews, and why do you think all Israelites are jews, only the house of Judah were jews, the other tribes don’t even know who they are, or do they. What did God say to Jacob. I shall make you as numerous as the stars in the sky, and the sand on the beach, and i will make you a great nation and a company of nations, and your name will always be great, now who does that fit. if you want some more clues come back and I’ll give you some.
Peter,
This is what I said: I don’t mind adopting a day of REST so that I can be REFRESHED also for the week to come – and that goes for believers in God and also non-believers.
I know where you’re coming from. Let’s leave it.
The counsel of Niacea on Wikipedia or other publication will give you more history on the evolution of Trinity Jim… to learn from post Church teaching is in my opinion to learn from man made doctrine… Trinity was voted in amongst 400 bishops, they decided then what the future Christian Church would look like, a tone that is read in post Niacean Bibles. That said, there are new Bible’s that are correcting this: the Ten Commandments – however have not changed with the exception of name changes (in my opinion a major problem). Have you looked up what Baal means (Do Look)? Baal is the Babylonian Sun God (also called other deities) that YHVH warned us all to stay away from… Many will say words are not important but I believe scripture tells us different (from the quote on ten commandments above… ie: “You shall not take the name of the Lord[see my point?] your God in vain [means Idle / Worthless], for the Lord [see my point?] will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.”) To think we use this and other words that go against our Creator’s words shows how ignorant we are to the commandments and His warnings. The good news is that hundreds of thousands are going back to the original text. It is a choice we all have to make, I pray all research this and see for themselves. We must not forget, ignorance comes from complacency. Shalom.
Baal means Lord! I know many won’t like this… if so I dont blame them, neither did I when I learned what the word means… more so than that, how I was ignorantly using it in place of His own name YHVH (we are taking His name in Vane)… May we bless Him that we be blessed, in Y’Shua Amein.
In NIV they specifically say that when they write LORD in capital letters, they mean YHVEH. That does not excuse them changing the words but they at least let you know they changed the translation and why.
The use of “Adonai” is the right word for “Lord”.
You talk about Niacea. The word “Adonai” is found in the Hebrew Bible – David uses it quite often in his psalms – and the Hebrew Bible (OT) has nothing to do with Niacea. Translating from the Hebrew the word Adonai to Lord is correct.
On the other hand, in the translations to other languages it does not say in the 10 Commandments, “You shall not use BAAL’s name in vain”. In the Bible they use the word Baal and Lord and LORD. But they use Baal specifically when they talk of idols and not when they translate YHVEH into LORD. I don’t think that anyone would make the mistake between Baal and Lord. We know Baal is an idol god and Lord is the One and Only God – LORD/YHVEH.
Baal also means lord (small L). But so does Adonai. You cannot translate some words into other languages, so the best they could do in English and some other languages is to use the small and the big letter L to differentiate between them. Same thing is done in my native language also.
If you did not know, in Hebrew “baal” is also used for “husband” (as in the far past, the women called their husbands “lord”). That does not mean that whenever a woman says “my baal (baaly)” she is saying “my BAAL (idol god)”.
That is the problem with translating into other languages.
Another great example: the translators of the Bible translated it in a language (I don’t remember which at the moment) that did not have a word for “joy” (like “joy in the Lord”). The nearest they could come to was something like “my stomach is full” – so that is how they translated “joy” into that language “having a full stomach in the Lord”.
We should not get hung up on translations if the translators explain to us why they use the certain word – like in NIV.
Hi Pricilla, I pray you find yourself well :o)
I agree with you that “at least they tell us what the word means” “like in NIV”. The issue I see with that is that they still use it. I also agree that the term Adonai (Lord) comes from the eventual ommitance of the Tetragrammaton (YHVH or YHWH) by the Jews, where they replace the Tetragrammaton arguing that it is too Holy (Set-Apart) to be uttered by anyone else but the High Priests, that no longer exist after the destruction of the second temple in 70AD.
When we read the story of Israel’s warning not to bow to the Baals (Lords), we also see a people (“stiff-necked”) that do not listen. This begins around around 1000bc when they cross the Jordan (also can be seen dating back to the days of Noah), it is then that Moshe (Moses), before Israel crosses the Jordan, warns them to not forget what YHVH has both done for them, more so than that what YHVH requires of them, namely that they do not mix with the Caananites (Baal worshipers). Unfortunately they do not listen, so much so that they begin marrying into the nations that they are told not to, men and women that have now exposed themselves to a culture that is centered on the Baals… I believe their is plenty of evidence to back the reality that these Baal centered cultures would affect Israel’s leadership, namely the priests, and in many ways why closer to the time of Y’Shua we see a rift created in Jewdiism (ie” Essenses, Pharasees, Saducees, etc)…that in the preceding 1000 years from crossing the Jordan the concept of Baal would work it’s way into the very fabric of Jewish culture. Is it no wonder that they would opt to use the word Adonai (which ultimately is taken from Baal). Lets face it, words have meaning, we on the other hand are oblivious to them for many do not seek them out. Here are some references:
Wikipedia: “Baʿal is a Northwest Semitic title and honorific meaning “master” or “lord” that is used for various gods who were patrons of cities in the Levant and Asia Minor”. & “Baal is one of the seven princes of Hell. He is mentioned widely in the Old Testament as the primary pagan idol of the Phoenicians, often associated with the pagan”.
Britannica Encyclopedia online: “Baal (ancient deity), god worshiped in many ancient Middle Eastern communities, especially among the Canaanites, who apparently considered him a fertility deity”.
There are many other references, but I will pause with these.
A sub note: It is of no shock to me that wives use to call their husbands baal (small b), after all wives where practically at their husbands’ mercy.
As I have learned, the wolf comes in sheeps’ clothing, where the greatest majority of Christians (I too lived this), though more are coming to awareness, have ignorantly accepted what was adopted in Niacea, by so called bishops that all come from the very same areas of Messopotamia and Asia that where influenced by the Baal culture of thousands of years. Ultimately, I believe evidence shows the vote that would mold a new Christian Doctrine in 3525 AD was in itself flawed in that the very source they would choose to take the information from had already been flawed, I am speaking of incremental Sanhedrin ommitance of the Tetragrammaton to original Torah texts.
The intresting thing is that we know terms such as Lord (an abomination to YHVH) where added by man, something that might add up to about 1% of the full body of Torah, and later the full body of BritHadash (NT).
When the dead sea scrolls where found (dating back to around 200 – 100 bc) the term Lord had not yet been added, in fact – and though Sanhedrin scribes had begun to remove the Tetragrammaton, we see in these scrolls that the Tetragrammaton is there. Even more, the Mesha Steel tablet shows the Tetragrammaton in use as far back as 800BC (est.).
The proponents for Trinity, in the counsel of Niacea, would adopt a Trinitarian doctrine that would eventually allow for the adopting of the Sanhedrin imposed Lord, for certainly, Trinity means one God as such one Lord and what Trinity means (this word, however common and regardless of common usage, is an abomination to the 3rd commandment, an Abomination to YHVH who warned Israel against same.)… ultimately man’s inability to humble himself before the Will of YHVH.
I agree translations can be misleading, that is why there is a huge movement worldwide to adopt transliterated nouns versus translations… truth is important “o)
Thanks for sharing and again, may you find yourself well, especially in the Holy Spirit I see in You :o) Shalom.
It would stand to reason that YHVH would need to send our Messiah, the obedient example to man, indeed the salvation of man.
Just an add-on friend,
The modern Hebrew Bible uses the term Adonai, but it is modern, meaning it has been updated in time. Original scriptures, prior to the ommitance of the Tetragrammaton (YHVH) by scribes and as recorded in Jewish records, did not have the word Adonai (Lord) (Baal). This word replaced YHVH.
Hope this helps… Shalom (Peace be with you) :o)
If the scribes removed some of YHVEH and substituted it with Adonai – why didn’t they do it in ALL CASES? It just doesn’t make sense that they would PICK AND CHOOSE where to substitute and where not to. And why in those cases and not in others? I think that all the names God is called in the Bible are names that show his certain attributes and the relationship between him and man. I am sure that Elohim YHVEH sees everyone’s heart and knows who is praying and honoring him and who is not – no matter which name they use to turn to him.
Another thing: Do you know how many differnt names Jesus has? As many as there are nations on this earth. I know him as 5 differnt names and I am sure he also does not hold it against anyone that they do not call him YESHUA.
God searches the heart – and if we want to be Biblical, he actually searches the “kidneys” and “intestines” (in Hebrew) – but we all know that both the heart, and the kidneys and intestines, have nothing to do with it. It is our spirit and soul that he searches.
So let’s not get caught up in semantics. God won’t hold it against us if we call him LORD – and acutally we are his slaves and he is our LORD and MASTER.
Another note:
Noah has nothing to do with the “stiff-necked” Jews. He was before their time.
And Moshe did not cross the Jordan. Joshua did. 🙂
Sorry, just saw that you did not say Moshe crossed the Jordan. 🙂
Hello Pricilla…
Exodus 3:15 (English Standard Version)
This,
15 God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘The Lord,[a]the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.
Compared to:
Restored Name King James Version
3:15 And Elohim said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, YHWH Elohim of your fathers, the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.
When I read these two realities I choose the second for clearly this verse is talking about His name not given title. Note that in the first, the name of YHVH is not given, the title is. Why? Why? do we ommit His name and replace it with anything? Why?
This was not an easy thing for me to accept, I have been using that title for ever it seems, but then again who said that being a disciple of Y’Shua (his Hebrew Name, regardless of what other names are assigned) is suppose to be easy… that said this cross I carry should not be confused with “his yoke, which is easy”… the first refers to persecution and the second to peace in the midst of persecution.
As I read the 3rd of the ten commandments it is clear, I should not take away from His name which is given to us (YHVH)… to change it in any way is to demean it. Imagine if we were all called by a title, how then would we retain our identity… an identity He clearly wanted us to know… YHVH = “He who will do as He says He will, and or other similar meaning”… This is especially true when replacing it by a word that means Baal (this is what the word is defined as)… even if you do not want to accept what the word means it means what it means, but I understand what you are saying… correct me if I am wrong sister… to you Lord means something different… but are we suppose to decide His name is to be forgotten, replaced by something else, when He gave it to us? Are we to say that this or that means this or that based on what we want it to mean? I was one of those that did exactly that… until I learned different is my point. No judgment, He is the one that will judge, we shouldn’t.
Yes, some scribes replaced the Tetragrammaton and some didn’t, depending on what branch of Judaism they belong too, that said after about the 6th century AD we see it completely replaced… what matters is that the given name of our Heavenly Father has been replaced.
I respect your view as I do others but I can not change what I know, as uncomfortable as it may feel. Shalom.
Rams,
I don’t know what you’re talking about. I read the Hebrew Bible (as well as in 2 other languages) and and I don’t see YHVH’s name replaced in Hebrew – if it ever was – as you say “totally”. And, since I know the language and have lived in Israel for 44 years, though not Jewish, I can tell you that YHVH is still in the Hebrew Bible. Adonai was and is used ORALLY – when they read outloud and get to YHVH they SAY “Adonai”. But Adonai can be found all over the Hebrew Bible in the written form also – just like YHVH. Though in the past years even Adonai is too holy for them and they now say “HaShem” – “the Name”. Or they may say Elokim and not Elohim because in God’s name there is an H and they don’t even want to use part of his name outloud so they won’t be guilty of using it in VAIN.
YHVH is actually made up of the verb to be. God said his name is “I am that I am” or some translate it “I will be what (or, that) I will be”. Both are right because in the letters making up God’s name both the present tense and the future tense of the verb “to be” can be found. Even the past tense. Which is why it can be said that he was, and is, and will be forevermore.
Now, to pronounce it according to Hebrew. Hebrew is made up of consonents. Dots and lines below consonants give them the vowel sounds. If I was to transliterate the Name it comes in about 3 forms: Yehova, Yyhove, Yhveh. All of them signifying present and future (and if you were to take out the Y, what is left of the word is the past) tense of the verb “to be”.
And Jesus is Yeshua – which actually means “Salvation” or “God (Ye – first letter of God’s name) shua (saves)”.
And YHVH is not completely erased from the Hebrew Bible – as we say here “it is alive and existing”.
Hope the grammer lesson helps.
Hi :o)
Sorry, I meant to say repetitively, not completely.. oops. My point was that many modern day bibles took after the replacement of YHVH for Lord… that’s all. Many modern bibles do not use the Tetragrammaton at all!!! instead they use the word Lord (I am sure you looked up the meaning so I wont repeat it again) imagine that!
I agree with you, I do not blame that the Jewish do not want to use the phonetization I wouldn’t want to either… you see no one really knows what that is, at least I have not seen any information to convince me otherwise… The Tetragrammaton should suffice, anything else is a guess, including that of the Hebrew consonant sounds (the dots), my point on that is those are not present in older Paleo Hebrew, imagine, even knowing this, many have set out to call Him one name or the other based on later idiom (the dots), we just do not know 100%, why take a chance… The fact is that I know more about the word Lord than I do about how His Holy name is pronounced…
In Judges 13:8 and 17 Manoah, the future father of Samson (the 12th Judge), asked the angel of YHVH for his name and he answered, “just why should you ask about my name when it is a wonderful one”, seemingly to say, you are not worthy of verbalizing my name… What is clear to me in these passages is that Manoah had prayed to YHVH to send him the same angel his wife had spoken with, who unbknownst to Manoah is the angel of YHVH… as such it seems to be YHVH is saying to him he is not worthy of verbalizing His name: This following hundreds of years after Israel had proven to fall short of YHVH’s will, over and over again, and the reason why scripture uses the term “Stiff-necked People”.
With that said the reason why I have stopped to try to vocalize His name, I just don’t know what it is. I only know that the Tetragrammaton has been around since before Manoah, and that will suffice. I pray I am not worng.
How cool that you lived in Israel, what made come to the states? When did you come back. Shalom.
Shalom dear sister,
The problem with using the form Ehyeh is that it is written and pronounced in Paleo Hebrew, which though older than Hebrew still is not the form of language that Moshe spoke or wrote in… His would have been the Ancient Paleo Hebrew idiom. I appreciate your concerns though – and without – in any way, trying to lessen your input, I plan to stay with YHVH or YHWH the Tetragrammaton, for I know from archeological finds this name was the closest name used to the time of Moshe (shortly after Yoheshua crossed the Jordan)… at least the Y H V H letters are known to make a sound :”Yod Heh Waw (or Vav) Heh” “YodHehVavHeh”… anything more or less, until another conclusive reality comes about, I care not attempt to vocalize; with the exception of Elohim, or shorter version used by Y’Shua ie: Eli.
That said the argument on the site you sent is a good one and probably the best I have seen yet, for most others fall on the Hebrew and not Paleo-Hebrew, as this explanation does. That said, it is my understanding that in order to know the true pronunciation of the Holy Name we would have to know Ancient Paleo Hebrew and no other. Unfortunately archeology has not come close to deciphering the Idiom of the days of Moshe. That said, the letter sounds in ancient Paleo Hebrew seem to be the closest we have, sounds that are believed to have carried down in time.
I do feel that when I meditate (pray) in YHVH, He knows it is Him I am directing my thoughts and feelings towards, where I also believe, based on the 3rd commandment, He appreciates that I use no other name than what is given. Praises be our Heavenly Father’s, Elohim of all, in Y’Shua, Amein.
I have to run for a couple of errands but will respond to the rest of your reply later… Much Shalom and thank you for your reply :o)
Shalom Brother Rams,
I am sure God sees your heart when you pray and doesn’t hold it against you that you cannot pronounce his Name correctly. As you say, the vowel sounds could have been different, though the basic language has stayed the same (at least that is my opinion), and the word Ehyeh is a verb form used even today in everyday conversation. It means “I will be” (like: “I will be” at work). So that surely has not changed.
The problem is with YHVH and the dots and dashes. Also, there is no W in Hebrew – unless you transliterate 2 Vav’s together – and even then the sound is a V and not the English W. When they translitereated the double Vav into a W, they did it in a German/European form which is pronounced as a V and not as a sort of a U like in English. Same goes for J in Jehovah – in Europe they say J like Y so when it was first used in translating the Bible, it was meant to be pronounced as Yehovah. Look at how Hallelujah is spelled – and they still pronounce the “j” in that word as “y”. That actually stuck until the present.
Thanks for the e-mail address – I was just thinking last night that we probably should not be using this site as e-mail correspondence. I will be in touch.
Shalom for now.
i need to knw the commandments for confirmation but it is too long and me teacher said that he wants the basic ones
i need a link bout where i can find the basic ones. 🙁
Shalom Fanlu,
Maybe what your teacher was referring to are the two greatest commandments, as given by Y’Shua
1. Love YHVH above all else.
2. Love our fellow man as we love ourselves.
The 10 commandments are above on this page, but you can also go to bible.com and enter a Bible search for the word commandments – in any bible version of your choice – and wella…. the ten commandments. :o)
All the best on you search!!! Shalom.
I still cannit see how the Trinity doctrine fit into the 1st Commandment. Really, if God is 3 in 1,then the 1st Commandment will be ‘You shall have no other gods before me except the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost’.
Hi Jim,
I had trouble for a long time understanding the Trinity. Some said here in this post that the word Trinity came into use about 300 yrs. after Jesus’ death, and that there was a certain reason to it.
After reading up on it for decades, and battling to understand each explanation, I gave up and decided to go with the advice “We will never really understand it, we just have to accept it by faith” – which is easier said than done.
There is the usual reference of “Let US make mankind in OUR image…” – and giving the meaning to US and OUR as the Trinity. Once I read an explanation that OUR meant God and the ANGELS, who were created spirit beings before humans were created, and also had the will to chose, to think and to do what they wanted – and that God was taking them into his confidence regarding the creation of the man. So, it was like God talking to the angels and saying “Let us make mankind into OUR image”.
“OUR image” and the angels issue did not help me understand the Trinity either, though “OUR” sounded little better.
So, how could I understand the Trinity? I saw in the OT that David pleaded with God not to take His Spirit away from him – so I knew that there was the Spirit of God. Also, it says in the beginning of OT:
“In the beginning GOD created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the SPIRIT of GOD was hovering over the waters.”
God created the earth but the SPIRIT of God was hovering over the waters. So here we already have the 2 “parts” (so to say) of one God. It seemed to me that God could “sit” in one place, while he sends his Spirit to do other things. Like, He could make a “divide” between himself and his Spirit.
But what about the Son? I could not find anything in the OT, but did find it in beginning of John in NT where it says:
“In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was WITH God, and the WORD WAS God. HE was with God in the beginning. Through HIM all things were made; without HIM nothing was made that has been made. In HIM was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.”
I read those verses hundreds of times but could not really understand them. One day it just “clicked” for ME – and I don’t know if this will help you, but it helped me.
In the beginning, God just said “Let there be…” and it came to be. It was only by his SPOKEN WORD that things came to be. So, when John says “he” or “him”, I think it means the SPOKEN WORD of God which had life in itself.
As God can fill us with his Spirit (that Spirit is what makes us want to search and find the truth about God because God loves us and wants to fellowship with us), so he can make his Word become FLESH and RESIDE within that flesh – which would be Jesus. Jesus would be the WALKING WORD of God among the mankind. From within him would come the previously SPOKEN Word of God.
So, it IS ONE God – which includes HIS WORD and HIS SPIRIT. Just like we have words (though we cannot make our words become someone/something else like God can) and we have our spirit which is apart from our flesh (but we cannot send our spirit to others because we are not God). That is why He is God and we are only made in His IMAGE. We have the things He has but are not GOD.
I also read this somewhere: It is ONE God, WITH his Word (Son) and WITH his Wisdom (Spirit). That made it click for me. It didn’t say “It is One God, AND his Word AND his Wisdom”
So, maybe those that are anti-Trinity and say it was a man-made expression are right and the Trinity as defined today does not exist, because it IS ONE God, WITH his life-giving Word that comes out of his mouth (and became flesh) and WITH his Spirit (Wisdom) that is given to us to know who HE is.
So, the commandment “You shall have no other gods before ME” would be correct in using the word “ME” (singular).
I hope this helps. This is only MY way of understanding God, his Word and his Spirit.
After reading the 10 commandments and really pondering about it , I have realized that the first 2 are never ever followed , If God is one as in the 1st command,then explain the is trinity.
“You shall have no other gods before me”
Second command says not to make images ,then explain the crucifix , paintings or portraits of Jesus, Mary etc in homes, Churches. And people speak to these images and ask pray to it, isnt that idol worshipping.
You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
Hi Lydia,
Thanks for trying to explain about Trinity. I always have problems accepting ‘by faith’ as I believe God’s Words and Commands should be easily understood by the human logical thinking if man choose to, but unfortunately most man chose to complicate what is very clear. Only thing we should accept ‘by faith’ is that God exists. “Why He exists, how He exists, what is He made of, how He looks like” are not for us to ponder as it will be beyond us. However, evidences/proofs of His existence can be easily proven by logical human thinking.
“Let us make man in our image” Genesis 1:26 refers to the plurality of God but if you read the next verse (Genesis 1:27), it relates the creation of man to a singular God, “And God created man in His image”. In this verse the Hebrew verb “created” appears in the singular form. If “let us make man…” indicates a numerical plural, it would be followed by “And Gods created man in THEIR image.”
“In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was WITH God, and the WORD WAS God. HE was with God in the beginning. Through HIM all things were made; without HIM nothing was made that has been made. In HIM was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.” If you look at this from a ‘Big Picture’ perspective, you will realized that this verse is also telling us everything exist in God’s Mind realm long before they get created. Man existence (and everything else) and the progress of mankind to today is already in God’s mind realm long before God created Heavens and Earth. To put this in perspective, every Man’s creations (cars, aeroplanes, computers, TVs, space travel, etc) must exist first in somebody mind or imagination (as words) before they can be invented or realized. Nothing can be invented by Man if they don’t exist first in somebody’s imagination. That is why Napoleon Hill of “Think and Grow Rich’ fame said “What the Mind can conceive, the Mind can achieve”. Of course God’s Plan/Words (in creations) is limitless while Man’s imagination is limited by God’s own permission.
You commented ” God created the earth but the SPIRIT of God was hovering over the waters. So here we already have the 2 “parts” (so to say) of one God. It seemed to me that God could “sit” in one place, while he sends his Spirit to do other things. Like, He could make a “divide” between himself and his Spirit.” Again, we keep comparing God by our human standards. Man needs to “divide”(delegate his tasks to others) or be in “parts” (have helpers) to be everywhere or do many things at the same time. But we are talking about God here. God is Omnipresent. He created everything including the Angels, the Holy Spirit, Everything. God need not be in “parts” or “divide” Himself or be one of His creations. God reminds us of His “Oneness” in so many verses. “To whom will you liken me and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be alike? “ Isaiah 46:5 “Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.” Isaiah 46:9 “For I am the LORD, I do not change.” Malachi 3:6
Jesus himself said: ” It is written, ‘You shall worship the LORD your God, and HIM only you shall serve.’ ” Matthew 4:10 If you study this verse, you will know that this is related to the temptation of Christ by the Devil. Doesn’t this indicates that Jesus was not/part of God (Trinity)?. God cannot be tempted (James 1:13-15). Also, if Jesus were God, the Devil would never have asked Jesus to worship him. It was for desiring to be like God (and thus be worshipped like God) that the Devil was thrown out of heaven in the first place (Isaiah 14:12-15), and it is ridiculous to think that the Devil would have believed that God could be persuaded to worship him (the Devil).
The 1st commandment “You shall have no other gods before Me” means exactly what it said and to me is as clear as day and night. I still cannot see that ‘Me’ in the 1st Commandment as a Trinity God. I feel God is testing us whether we are really following Him and keeping His Commandments in all its originality or are we following the teachings of false Apostles or prophets. God warned us in Deuteronomy 13:1-5 “If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, ‘ Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the Lord your God is testing you to find out if you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall follow the Lord your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him.“
Jesus also warned us about this false Apostle in John 5:43 “I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.”
Question is have we been following (unknowingly or knowingly) the false teachings of a false Apostle that God and Jesus warned us about ?
Jim,
Well said, my friend. You obviously research your Scriptures eventho’ (I think) your obcervations may not be popular with the main stream here.
Weed,
I remember commenting the same sometimes back so obviously I agree with you.
May the One and Only God Bless us and guide us to the true and straight path.
Hi Jim,
Sorry, I thought you would see in my explanation how I CAME to believe it is ONE God and not Trinity – because He IS Spirit and His Word(s) DID create the world and everything in it. It all came from WITHIN Him. That He is able to “send” His Spirit (it does say “Spirit of God” and not a “created” spirit – and David said “Your (God’s)Spirit”) to wonder over the earth or to fill David or others with His Spirit, and that He is able to make His Spoken Word a Walking Word (Jesus did teach only what was already shown to us in the OT as God’s teaching) – it IS because He is omniPRESENT/POTENT/SCIENT.
I couldn’t understand the Trinity, especially in view of Jesus praying to God and elsewhere saying that He is going to His God and “your” God (meaning the disciples’ God)and some other similar references – there were so many things which made me unable to understand the Trinity, but now I know it IS ONE God. I just got to it from a different point of view.
Most of the things you wrote I’ve already heard or read elsewhere – it is not new to me – but that, too, did not help me much in my search to understand that ONE God is not Trinity. What I discribed before, is how I came to the conclusion that it is ONE God and not Trinity. (I also discribed the issue of singular and plural during the creation.)
Shalom to all,
I think that the confusion that exists points to history. As far as what His title is, the partial answer is in the words of Y’shua our Messiah, right before he dies, on Calgary; “ELI ELI LAMA SABACHTHANI”, which means, Eli, Eli, why have you forsaken me? Eli the singular form of Elohim, and as I have written here before, the plurality of El that Genesis 3:22 and others refer to.
History also shows us that the word god is singular and falls in well with the concept of Trinity. The thing about history is that many are either doomed to repeat it’s error, or blessed to repeat it’s blessing… and to my second point:
The term god is thought to have come from the Germanic word gut, or if further back believed to come from the proto Germanic word gudan… this is how wikipedia.com defines it:
“It is generally agreed that it derives from a Proto-Indo-European neuter passive perfect participle *ǵʰu-tó-m. This form within (late) Proto-Indo-European itself was possibly ambiguous, and thought to derive from a root *ǵʰeu̯- “to pour, libate” (Sanskrit huta, see hotṛ), or from a root *ǵʰau̯- (*ǵʰeu̯h2-) “to call, to invoke” (Sanskrit hūta). Sanskrit hutá = “having been sacrificed”, from the verb root hu = “sacrifice”, but a slight shift in translation gives the meaning “one to whom sacrifices are made.”
And not to go long-winded on this, for many protect the word god for they truly believe they are speaking of YHVH Elohim, when in essence the word can mean any number of gods and though today when spoken can also be understood (depending on who you are speaking with) as their god… so what god are we really talking about… I may know, but does the other fellow know. At least the 1st letter of the word is capitalized in scripture so we know we are not talking about the hundreds of other god that existed then… truth be said not many are aware that the word was adopted from the proto Germanic language which was used to identify other deities such as Thor, etc… this was just one of the varying pagan realities that a desperate early Church would adopt by integrating other than Christian words and practices, this to ease pagans into the Church.
That is what History teaches us, and though many have decided that that does not matter, I disagree, for that is just one more example of how a singular word has replaced a plural word that helps us better understand our Creator. YHVH is also not singular, it identifies the creator as who he/she is, and when transliterated can mean “He who is”, He is what He is”, “He who will do as He say He will”, etc… but leaves open who He truly is; this leads me to believe that He is not a person but a government of many that form one creator source, and the reason His works are manifested (His Spirit) in more than one place at once, such as in the case of the angels, prophets, and yes, The Begotten Son, Y’Shua. I do see Him as singluar, but not a singular person: Lets not forget that Spirit is what is manifested not some mysterious force that can’t be seen, if not the meaning / significance of the action, whatever that may be.
There is much that we decide not to seek, as for me I would rather deal with History and not hearsay that I do not repeat it’s error.
May we bless YHVH that we be blessed, in Y’shua Amein… Thanks for the great posts!!!
Okay , i believe in the 1 true God, creator of the universe and all mankind.
No matter what title we address God with , but the belief in 1 true god is important, It is the same God of all prophets and messengers , the God of Adam , Abraham , Noah , Moses , Jesus and even Mohamed , I know that that all spoke and preeched of 1 God no matter what they addressed God as it was the same God.
Now that we got that explained , let us discuss the 2nd command….You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness….What does this mean.
To me from a clear mind and heart , it simply means that I should not make or possess any images, portraits , statues and carvings of anything that I consider to be God or pray to and ask for my prayers to be answered to.
I mean , I am confused , is asking for a prayer in front of any picture or statue etc , wrong. Because come to think of it, I mean really, really try to think with a clear mind and forget what everybody else thinks and what we were thaught or for this matter what I was taught…Nobody has seen God but we know that God exist, I mean for the very fact that we are breathing is testament that God exists. So , does one still stand in front of Jesus or Mother Mary or Buddha or Shiva or even the Pope and ask for a prayer or forgiveness.
I mean nobody can replace God, God is God.
Please somebody elaborate.
Weed,
We are supposed to worship God in SPIRIT and in TRUTH.
I see no SPIRIT in the statues and icons – they are dead. And I see no TRUTH in them either – they cannot speak or express themselves. i.e. turn your back on them and pray in Spirit and Truth.
Thanks Priscilla , great reply. I know what I have to do , but what about everybody else. It is the truth and we have all seen people asking statues and icons for hope and prayer, even in church I’ve seen people do it.
Why are tehy sopped or corrected. Who should be the one to point this out?
People do tell me not to go too deep into things, are they right? They say not to question and just follow what we are told , is that right, I have questions , why dont we ask questions. e.g some say Jesus is Lord and some say Jesus is the son of God , which is correct? l
Oh Please reply someone..my apologies if I have hurt anyones feelings.
But this is a blog and it say speak your mind..lol
Weed, there are so many books out there, in addition to the Bible, that teach about how we should live as Christians. There are many Christian TV programs out there that do the same. But the only way to show people the truth is by showing them where it is written in the Bible.
We cannot change a whole church denomination to think like we do. For example: we cannot change the way Catholics do things and believe. The Catholic Church would never accept the teachings of the Protestant and Evangelical Churches where the statues and icons are concerned – or where praying to the saints and Mary is concerned.
But, one on one, you can make a difference. And the fact is that many Catholics, after talking in-depth with Protestants, do realize that the icons and statues, prayers to the saints and Mary, are not according to the Bible teachings – but they were born in that belief system and knew nothing better until they were shown.
As for Jesus being Lord or Son of God – or both – the best answer is in the Bible because here on this post you will receive as many answers as there are people writing it. Read the New Testament over and over again and you will get it in the end. God will show you the right answer if you ask him.
Also, if you have questions, you deserve real answers and not to be told to keep quiet and follow what you have been told. If someone tells you not to ask, it means that they themselves probably do not know the real answer to that question and they feel uncomfortable about it.
Hi Lydia,
I apologized for misinterpreting your earlier explanation of Trinity.
I have heard and read so many ‘explanations’ of Trinity that I missed that you are trying to explain to me how you came to the conclusion that God is One and not in trinity.
Now that I have read your comments again, you do make some good points.
My apology again.
Hi Jim,
I’s OK. It happens. There are so many views on this subject that it is hard to keep up. 🙂
Can anyone explains the 4th Commandment on the Sabbath. why are a lot of Christians worship on Sundays? Are they suppose to follow God’s command and respect Sabbath? please explain.
Hi Jim_M
I respectfully disagree with Lydia and here is why:
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one.
The Word
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelled among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Admittedly the word Trinity is man’s word to describe the God Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. A poor analogy is if you hold up three fingers, are the three fingers still a part of one hand? (No insult to God is intended with this poor example).
There is only one true living God. To those who question the Holy Trinity or say it is not possible, I do not judge or condemn them. I ask why do you limit God when all things are possbile for God?
I thank the Lord God who created the heavens, the earth and the sea and all things in them for without him I can bear no fruit at all.
God bless my bothers and sisters in Jesus Christ.
Hello Illiana, let me try to explain how I have come to understand it;
As you know the Shabbat (Sabbath) is a holy day (24 hours of rest in YHVH)… according to scripture a day of rest for all of YHVH’s creation, and therein what the 4th commandment says….. just recapping… As far as when the Shabbat took place, I go back to when Y’Shua walked the earth – a time that cancels the argument many have that Genesis dates back too far for anyone to know (Gen 2:2); after all Y’Shua shows us the day, I think we can believe the Begotten son of YHVH. Here is another twist on the days of the week…
For close to 200 centuries, the names of the days of the week would prove to fall away from Grace, many would say an assault on the first of the ten commandments. Here is an excerpt that explains the origin of the modern weekdays which were eventually adopted by the Catholic Church: Prior to the church doing this, the names we now use almost daily are pagan deities (as found at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_days_of_the_week )…
“The Germanic peoples adapted the system introduced by the Romans but glossed their indigenous gods over the Roman deities (with the exception of Saturday) in a process known as Interpretatio germanica. The date of the introduction of this system is not known exactly, but it must have happened later than AD 200 but before the introduction of Christianity during the 6th to 7th centuries,”
This is what the days mean: (as found at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_days_of_the_week )…
[Day 1] “Sunday: Old English Sunnandæg (pronounced [sun.nan.dæg] or [sun.nan.dæj), meaning “sun’s day”. This is a translation of the Latin phrase dies Solis. English, like most of the Germanic languages, preserves the original pagan/sun associations of the day.
[Day 2] “Monday: Old English Mōnandæg (pronounced [mon.nan.dæg] or [mon.nan.dæj’), meaning “moon’s day”. This is likely based on a translation of the Latin name dies lunae (cf. Romance language versions of the name, e.g., French lundi, Spanish lunes, Romanian luni, Italian lunedì, Irish luan). In North Germanic mythology, the moon is personified as a god, Máni.”
[Day 3] “Tuesday: Old English Tīwesdæg (pronounced [ti.wes.dæg] or [ti.wes.dæj], meaning “Tiw’s day.” Tiw (Norse Týr) was a one-handed god associated with single combat and pledges in Norse mythology and also attested prominently in wider Germanic paganism”
[Day 4] “Wednesday: Old English Wōdnesdæg (pronounced [woːd.nes.dæg] or [woːd.nes.dæj) meaning the day of the Germanic god Wodan (later known as Óðinn among the North Germanic peoples), and a prominent god of the Anglo-Saxons (and other Germanic peoples) in England until about the seventh century. It is based on Latin dies Mercurii, “Day of Mercury” ”
[Day 5] “Thursday: Old English Þūnresdæg (pronounced [θuːn.res.dæg] or [θuːn.res.dæj]), meaning the Þunor’s day. Þunor is commonly known in Modern English as Thor, the god of thunder in Germanic Paganism.”
[Day 6] “Friday: Old English Frīgedæg (pronounced [fri.je.dæg] or [fri.je.dæj]), meaning the day of the Norse goddess Fríge.”
[Day 7] “Saturday: the only day of the week to retain its Roman origin in English, named after the Roman god Saturn associated with the Titan Cronus, father of Zeus and many Olympians.”
Before I move on, sun. (sun’s day) comes from the sun, a singular deity that is the oldest and most referenced worldwide concept of a creator; if you want to know more on this see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_deity
OK, back to the days of the week… Note the 7th day (or Shabbat) is not on a sunday… I have numbered the days above according to the calendar that Y’Shua would have used (the Hebrew Calendar). In the Bible, a day actually starts at sunset (twilight) but in our modern reality we start counting our day after 12AM though most would agree that the day starts at the rising of the sun.
As to the days of the week, it should be no surprise to anyone that culture affects religion… the above definition of days a good example of that where today we see absolutely nothing wrong with following a catholic edict that made sunday the Shabbat, and regardless that the day adopted is pagan. My point is most people are oblivious to this history for they are comfortable with what they are familiar with, I know… I was one; lets face it, we acclimate ourselves too what is easier. That said, I try very hard not to.
According to 1st century history most Jews, Y’Shua and the appostles practiced the Shabbat from what we call today “fri. night” (the Biblical start of the 7th day or Shabbat) to “sat. night”, the Biblical end of the Shabbat… as for most of Christianity today we have adopted sun.- in place of Shabbat; I for example use to go to sun. service, but until I learned these things I never called it Sabath, it was just sun. service.. (imagine that – not only was I not resting the 24 hours as called for, but I was also calling His day by the name of an ancient Deity… service on sun’s day)… I can hear it now, YHVH would not have been upset with me… but even now I wonder, should I have not inquired on these matters sooner, let’s face it, in scripture implied ignorance is no excuse.
So today, I prefer to do what scripture tells us Y’Shua and the appostles did and rest on the historically correct day. I have been doing this for just over 2 years now… a true blessing to separate 24 full hours celebrating the gifts of YHVH’s creation… thank you Father, in Y’Shua.
Hope this helps. Ramiro.
Hi George,
I’ve to agree with Lydia as her definition of “Trinity” is the Oneness, not in 3 persons/entities (as most Christians believe), but Oneness in essence of God’s nature. It makes more sense and it satisfy the 1st Commandment.
You ask “.. why do you limit God when all things are possbile for God?” Isn’t Trinity limiting God’s Greatness? Maybe a better question to ask is “Is Trinity truly God’s Command and Jesus’s own teaching ?
Hi Jim_M
I could not find Lydia’s post. Oneness is difficult for me to grasp.
On one hand Jesus says (John 14:9) Jesus said to him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, Show us the Father?
But it is also written:
John 16:3 “And these things they will do to you because they have not known the Father nor me.”
Here he is distinguishing himself as another from the Father. Jesus separates himself from the Father in person but not in nature.
John 20:31 But these are written, that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you might have life through his name.
As God Jesus is equal to the Father. As Man He was subject to the Father’s will.
When Jesus affirmed, ‘The Father is greater than I’ (John 14:28), He was not disclaiming divine nature; rather, He was asserting that He had subjected Himself voluntarily to the Father’s will”
Jesus teachings:
(Matthew 22:37) Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
Jesus said (John 14:6) Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me.
Jesus Christ is the narrow gate.
Currently I do not believe Trinity is limiting God’s greatness but is witness to it because it is very difficult to comprehend. (1 John 5:7) “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one” satisfies the first commandment. I believe there is only one true living God; God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles.
The nature of God is love.
1 John 4:8 He that loves not knows not God; for God is love.
I have never heard the term Oneness. I’d like to hear more about Oneness if that is ok with you.
God bless you.
Excellant point Jim_M, The Trinity does limit the Greatness of God , God is not 3=1 , God is 1 = infinty . I mean everything we touch , see and feel around us is because of God. “Is not is the water that quenches our thirst but the quality that God put in the water which quenches our thirst”.
And George , in reference to John 1:14 , the last time I checked the meaning of the word beggoten is an offspring generated by procreation, related by blood . So Sorry but I have to question the Bible ,God is far more Superior to us , God created us , just like Gabriel (Spirit) , Jesus(Son) and all creatures to serve him. Jesus’s concept was a miracle in relation to the Virgin Mary , there was no PROCREATION. If there was then that would make Mary Gods partner..lol COME ON PEOPLE THINK,LETS USE THE COMPREHENSION WHICH GOD HAS GIVEN US.God has no wife,no mother ,no father , siblings etc , God is one. Jesus is God’s messenger just like all other messengers sent by God with just one message and that is to preech about the oneness of God.And we go and do this to Jesus, claiming he is the son of God, some say he is Lord. Jesus must be so disappointed , all that he sacrificed and we still dont get his message. You know when Jesus mention The Son , he does not mean the Begooten Son , but son as the love God has for him, e.g if I ask my nephew , How are you son, he is not my begooten son but I call him son out of affection. Could be a friend’s son , “how are you son and how’s you dad doing”.
There is not a single verse in the bible where JESUS says I AM GOD OR WORSHIP ME .
Matthew 4:10: “Jesus said to him,’Away from me, Satan! For it is written: “Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only
1Timothy 2:5: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus”
John 20:17: “Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them,’I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'”
James 2:19: “You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.”
Mark 13:32:”No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
Iliana,
Under the comments and above “Speak Your Mind” you will find words “Older Comments”. If you press on that, you will find many comments on all subjects and the issue of Sabbath was discussed broadly. I don’t think we should repeat ourselves.
Enjoy the search.
Weed John 1:14 is a quote from the King James bible. It is also in the Douay-Rheims, and many other versions of the Bible. It does not say naturally begotten child. I did not write the Bible but only spread God’s word without bringing it down to the level of man.
Jesus is not God’s messenger just like all other messengers unless you believe all of the prophets died for our sins.
John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, ‘Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
1 Timothy 6:14 that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1 Timothy 6:15 Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
2 Corinthians 5:21 Him who knew no sin he made to be’sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him.
Lord Jesus Christ was the Messiah. The only one to ever live without sinning. He came down from heaven not be served but to serve. He was the perfect example for us all.
Single verse Jesus is God:
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
About God: 1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one
If oneness means Jesus is God’s messenger just like all other messengers sent by God with just one message and that is to preach about the oneness of God and deny Jesus Christ, then I absolutely do not believe in oneness.
Please read your Bible and (Proverbs 2:1-5) My son, if you receive my words
and treasure up my commandments with you,
making your ear attentive to wisdom
and inclining your heart to understanding;
yes, if you call out for insight
and raise your voice for understanding,
if you seek it like silver
and search for it as for hidden treasures,
then you will understand the fear of the Lord
and find the knowledge of God.
That’s the problem George , Too many version of the Bible, do we believe what we choose and make sense to us or what we want to here or do we keep searching for the truth like I am doing.
Shalom George,
Maybe I misunderstood what you read, so I am going to paraphrase a little in order to grasp your full message ie: You write…
“John 1:14 is a quote from the King James bible. It is also in the Douay-Rheims, and many other versions of the Bible. It does not say naturally begotten child.”… end quote.
This is what the KJV reads: “John 1:14 (Whole Chapter)
“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”
Here are more quotes in the KJV that bring more light to what Begotten is:
“Genesis 5:4 (Whole Chapter)
And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
Leviticus 18:11 (Whole Chapter)
The nakedness of thy father’s wife’s daughter, begotten of thy father, she is thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
Numbers 11:12 (Whole Chapter)
Have I conceived all this people? have I begotten them, that thou shouldest say unto me, Carry them in thy bosom, as a nursing father beareth the sucking child, unto the land which thou swarest unto their fathers?
Deuteronomy 23:8 (Whole Chapter)
The children that are begotten of them shall enter into the congregation of the LORD in their third generation.
Judges 8:30 (Whole Chapter)
And Gideon had threescore and ten sons of his body begotten: for he had many wives.
And finally, begotten can also mean born again, as in the case of Y’Shua’s resurrection by the Father, as to say he was brought to life from nothingness (death) by the Father:
Revelation 1:5 (Whole Chapter)
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
I do agree that Y’Shua is of the Father, and so to do I believe in Mary’s miraculous conception, the story of Gabriel visiting Mary.
More so than that, since Y’shua is given authority of the Father, at times he speaks as the Father and no different to Eliyah or other prophets… which brings forth how the Holy Spirit works, it’s manifestation of the Father.
There are many more quotes but I’ll stop here. As far as the validity of the Bible, it may have some names that have been changed from the original, especially that of the Tetragrammaton YHVH (over 6500 times) but the changes have been so subtle that they are easily seen by the dedicated student… this can be seen in how the Septuagint, which was one of the Bibles used in the days of Y’Shua, was compared to the dead sea scrolls, which were not found until last century, and was found to have a 1% to 2% variance in words… imagine that, Biblical scrolls that had not been compared with modern Bibles in 200 centuries matching up… awesome right!!!
Those are my thoughts. May we bless YHVH that we may be blessed… I pray that all of us stay humbled to His works and not ours, in Y’Shua, Amein.
Hi George,
‘Oneness’ means just that – One and Only, by itself no associations. “Trinity” indicates three in one as a triangle indicates 3-sided angle and most Christians will use this ‘triangle concept’ to explain Trinity ie. 3 sides but still 1 unit. Sounds like a valid argument but here’s the thing – a triangle is a triangle as long as the 3 sides are part of the unit as 1. If you break up or remove the sides, the triangle is no longer a triangle but 3 separate sides. Trinity has a 2 parts definition, first part is ‘God is The Father, God is the Son and God is the Holy Spirit’. The second part of the Trinity definition is the Father is NOT the Son, the Son is NOT the Holy Ghost and the Holy Ghost is NOT the Father. This indicates that individually, the Father is the Father, the son is the Son (Jesus is Jesus) and the Holy Ghost is the Holy Ghost so, individually, they are 3 separate Beings, no longer a Trinity unit. However, if you hold by the first part of the definition, these 3 Beings, although individually unique and not the same, are still Gods. So we have 3 separate Beings who are Gods – 3 Gods at any one time as these 3 Beings can co-exist individually. Is the 1st Commandment fulfilled ? Of course NO, and the obvious answer is that there is only one God. God acts on His own, Jesus and the Holy Ghost act on God’s Command and/or with His permission.
Jesus said “I can do nothing on my own. I judge as God tells me. Therefore, my judgment is just, because I carry out the will of the one who sent me, not my own will.” John 5:30 Why would Jesus said this if he’s God or part of the Trinity ?
In your response to Weed, you said “If oneness means Jesus is God’s messenger just like all other messengers sent by God with just one message and that is to preach about the oneness of God and deny Jesus Christ, then I absolutely do not believe in oneness.” You sounded very arrogant as if being God’s messenger is a very degrading job. These Messengers do not apply for the job, they ARE CHOSEN by God and yet you look down at these Messengers and Jesus if he too is just a messenger like the rest ? If Jesus is denied Godship and ‘just a messenger like all other messengers’, you will deny the Oneness of God? How arrogant can one be !
Do you realize that the concept of the Oneness of God was stressed by Moses in a Biblical passage known as the “Shema”, or the Jewish creed of faith: “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.” (Deuteronomy 6:4). This was repeated word-for-word approximately 1500 years later by Jesus when he said “…The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord.” (Mark 12:29). Even Muhammad who came along approximately 600 years later, bring the same message “And your God is One God: there is no God but He…” (The Qur’an 2:163). You see the consistency of “One God” here ? Do you see ‘Trinity, ‘Holy Ghost’ or ‘the ‘Son’ in these verses ?
As I said before, the question you should be asking is “Is Trinity Doctrine a God’s Command and did Jesus himself really preach ‘Trinity’ “?
Hi Jim_M
Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost has made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he has purchased with his own blood.
Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Revelation 22:16 I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”
John 1:1 – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… 1:14 – And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,
John 10:30-33 – Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”
John 8:58 – Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
John 5:23 – that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
John 8:24 – “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM He, you will die in your sins.”
Only God can forgive sins. Only God has angels. I do not deny the Oneness of God that being the Holy Trinity is one God.
Hi Weed
I am glad you are searching for the truth as we all should. We find the truth in God when we “seek it like silver”.
Dear George,
As always, you list down interesting quotes from the Scriptures but how do you know for sure they are true words from God and not from the Devil or his associates ?
Man has been warned many times by God of the Devil’s cunningness in misleading people (to follow him, the Devil, where people are misled to believe in the name of God) by distorting the Scriptures :
“He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.” 2 Peter 3:16-17
“Then the LORD said unto me, The (false) prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spoke I unto them: they prophesy unto you a lying vision, and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their own heart.” Jeremiah 14:14
“Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” John 4:1
The sad truth is if we cannot even pass God’s very 1st Commandment, then we are really easy targets for the Devil.
Dear George,
I never said the Bible or for that matter, any other Scriptures are from the Devil. I only quoted the verses where Man is indeed forwarned by God to be careful with some verses in the Scriptures as they may be distorted by the cunningness of the Devil. And the verses I quoted are from the Scriptures, not of my own. I am a Christian too and the verse I quoted from the Quran (which is only one I can remembered quoting from the Quran) is to show you the consistency of ‘One God’ in God message by all His Prophets. Of course the ‘One God’ is not the only message conveyed by God thru His Messengers, there are others too (I think thats why the Commandments are 10 and not 1) but the most important one is the 1st Commandment. This is iterated by Jesus himself when he said ““…The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord.” (Mark 12:29).
I also clearly said if we cannot even get this correct, then we are easy targets for the Devil. If you have read the Scriptures, you will know that the Devil main mission is to lead Man away from this very 1st Commandment. The Devil himself and his associates knew the truth of this 1st Commandment that God is One and they trembled with fear as they knew they are doomed to Hell anyway.
“You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror.” James 2:19
I am happy for you that you managed to turn your life around for the better but remember this the Devil too can perform miracles and grant wishes. Someone in this forum asked why people keep on worshipping Idols and statues and the answer is bcos their hopes and wishes do get granted when they pray to these statues, idols or deities. I have seen a paralysed boy, who doctors said have no hopes, walk again to lead a normal life after his parents pray to the statue of Buddha. You think his parents will now pray to the one unseen God or Jesus ? Of course not bcos to them, their prayers and hopes are answered by Buddha. Question is who answered their prayers of hope ? Is it God or is it the Devil in the quise of God’ in his cunning mission to stray people from the 1st Commandment ?
Trinity can be explained in many ways and some one said with a Triangle. Well it took me time to get a bit of understanding about Trinity yet even if I have a little bit of the concept it is really hard to understand Trinity fully. For me The Sun in our solar system is a good example to get the idea of Trinity.
The Sun could be seen as the Father, the light that is begotten from the Sun can be seen as Christ, as he says I am the light of the world, and the heat from the sun, can be seen as the Holy Spirit who proceeds from both the Father and the Son as the creed says. So you have them sharing in the exact same essence or substance, yet different in relation to one another and in function.
Yet the Sun, Light, and Heat have one common purpose to nurture the earth as do the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have the one common purpose of sharing its glory with mankind and bringing us into relationship with the Godhead.
The Father begets the Son as the Sun begets the light, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son as heat proceeds from the Sun and the light.
The Sun we see high in the sky, and we see the Sun through its light. In the same way, as we behold the Father through the Son, and heat is something we feel, and the Holy Spirit is the Comforter, he is the presence we feel that supports us and gives us consolations and gifts.
Therefore the one Sun shows itself as triune, sunlight and heat yet one substance or essence, as its splendid in its unity and oneness. How much more the Creator of the sun is splendid and One in his unity and oneness in his triune being. May the Lord God show you the way and the truth.
In my religion, which is the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo teaching all the pictures and paintings are there to teach us a lesson and also remind us of their exsistence. When we pray infront of a picture, a painting or a sculpture by no means we believe those materials are gods and they will hear us. It is like when I see a picture of Jesus Christ, it reminds me of Christ but no other and the same with the Virgin Mary, Angels and so on. So the first and second commandment still stays but most have wrong belief that when peopple pray infront of things they think they are praying for the materials and the materials will hear them.
May the Lord show us the way and the truth.
Jim_M
The Holy Bible says Satan will think to change the laws and the times.
I do not bow down before statues, idols or deities. I worship the one true living God and I offer anything good that I do to God for His glory because without God’s grace I can do nothing at all. Praise the Lord God who created the heavens, the eath, the sea and all things in them. I can only boast of the Lord and not of myself.
I do not pray for things or pleasures of this earth, only that I be given the grace to understand and do God the Fathers will. Matthew 7:21-23, “Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, and cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name? And then will I declare to them, I never knew you, depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness”.
Just because we call Jesus our Lord, this will not save us. The world is Satan’s and he will have it until he is chained in the abyss for 1000 years and afterwards cast in to the lake of fire. I do not want the glitter of the earth because that is of Satan.
God does not grant wishes. He hears our prayers. The quran teaches Satan was cast out of heaven because he would not worship man. I stopped reading there because God is just and that is a lie. Muhammad was not a prophet. The prophets tell of Jesus coming.
The Holy Bible is full of verses speaking of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Here are just a few.
Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
John 20:28, 2 Peter 1:1, 1 Pet 1:12, Luke 5:20, Luke 5:21, Luke 5:22
The devils recoginzed Jesus.
Matthew 8:28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
If Jesus were not God, He would have rebuked people to not worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation did. Matthew 14:33, Matthew 28:9,
John 9:38, Luke 24:52
The Satan and his devils mission is too lead you away from God by any means possible. Matthew 22:37-38 Jesus replied: Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment.
2 Timothy 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. I do not believe in Buddha or any other false god nor their mircles. I would not pray to Buddha or any other god even if I knew for a fact I would get my mircle. I would call them a liar.
Matthew 4:6 And said to him, If you be the Son of God, cast yourself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning you: and in their hands they shall bear you up, lest at any time you dash your foot against a stone.
Matthew 4:7 Jesus said to him, It is written again, You shall not tempt the Lord your God.
Jesus said He was God in His response to Satan.
Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Philippians 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took on him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Philippians 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient to death, even the death of the cross.
Philippians 2:9 Why God also has highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name
Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Philippians 2:11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
I know the devils because they are tempting me to return to my life of sin. My answer is by the grace of God I tell you no. My heart is set on heaven. The changes in my life are not a deception by Satan. I have renouced Satan, the evil spirts and all their works. I have never prayed to a devil.
Without God I would not have changed at all. I had not desire to change until I was called by God. John 6:37 All that the Father gives me shall come to me; and he that comes to me I will in no wise cast out
I am aware some verses have been removed from the newer Bibles. I do not believe God would allow the Bible to be distorted to the extent it would have to be to fulfill Satan’s purpose. God is just and full of mercy. God is not fair because we all deserve to go to hell. Mark 1:15
I cannot condemn you or judge you for what you believe and I do not. James 4:12 However, I see no reason to continue this because I cannot save you, you cannot save me; we cannot save ourselves. Matthew 19:26
Oneness limits God because Oneness it says all things are not possible for God. I do not question God and all things are possible for the one true living God. Jesus Christ died for our sins and rose on the third day. This is what I believe and know to be true.
Titus 3:5-6 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,
I could provide many more verses, but I will not.
All praise to my Savior, Lord and God.
Hello All,
Would any of you like to join the discussion on this website but a different subject? Like, can a Christian lose his/her salvation? Very interesting…
https://www.bible-knowledge.com/lose-your-salvation/
Dear George,
I am not against the Bible or the other scriptures, including the Quran. (By the way, if you read the Quran, the Satan was cast out bcos he refused God’s Command to bow down to Adam, who God first created from Earth.) I have nothing against the Muslims and I respect their faith just as much I expect them to respect Christianity. Islam, Christianity, Buddhism or Hinduism do not make you a man of God. What make you a man of God is your Faith and Belief. If the Devil can change the Laws (as you said what the Holy Bible said of Satan’s plan), by distorting just part the Scriptures, which is the basic foundation and source of references of millions of believers, then the Devil/Satan would have succeed greatly in his plan.
Its ironic that you should quote Mathews 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, and cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name? And then will I declare to them, I never knew you, depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness”. Its ironic bcos here Jesus is indirectly telling us he’s not God and only those who does the will of God (the Father, the God that Jesus himself pray to) will enter Heaven. Who prophesied in Jesus’ name, cast out demons in Jesus’ name, done many wonders in Jesus’ name? The obvious answer is Christians do. But Jesus said not everyone, so there will be Christians who will enter Heavens but these are those who do the will of God, not his(Jesus) will. What is the will of God ? The will of God is His Commandments and the most important of all is His 1st Commandment… so we are back to where we started and that is God is One, not in trinity.
You said “I do not believe God would allow the Bible to be distorted to the extent it would have to be to fulfill Satan’s purpose.” Firstly, God does not allow the Bible to be distorted, its Man that allow the Bible to be distorted. Secondly, the Bible do not fulfill Satan’s purpose, only Man can fulfill Satan’s purpose, if he allow himself to be deceived.
You said “The world is Satan’s and he will have it until he is chained in the abyss for 1000 years and afterwards cast in to the lake of fire. I do not want the glitter of the earth because that is of Satan.”
Wrong again ! “Because they were created in His image, God gave men and women a privileged place among all creatures and commanded them to exercise stewardship over the earth (Genesis 1:26-28; Psalm 8:6-8). Stewardship implies care taking, not abusing.
JIM-M
You do not understand or believe the scriptures. You use many words to explain a doctrine of man. You believe in lies. Muslim’s bow to a place on earth to pray. Isn’t God in heaven? (Your earlier commment talked about bowing.) Do angels worship you?
True Christianity must be in accordance with the Bible, the word of God. True Christianity pronounces Jesus Christ to be the son of God and believes that He is the only way to salvation and forgiveness.
Job 11:7-12 Can you fathom the mysteries of God? Can you probe the limits of the Almighty?
You have limited God the almighty. You are not a Christian. You are a deceiver; an antichrist. The truth is not within you.
The Bible speaks of you.
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.
Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.
The Bible speaks of me:
Romans 16:17 I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them.
I cannnot communicate with you anymore unless you accept Jesus Christ as your God and your Savior. Am I judging or condemning you? I write these to warn others. I will pray for you and hope to find you in heaven. Who am I to say Jesus Christ will not save you.
George,
Guess the truth is hard to swallow, right ? I do understand the Scriptures but God gave Man the faculty of Intelligence to think and reason out with logic of what were presented to them. Unfortunately people like you chose not to use this gift from God and believe everything you read as long as its in the Scriptures. Your thinking and knowledge is limited within what you read in the Christian’s Scriptures. You cannot accept that some verses (thankfully not all) in the Scriptures are distorted by man. I quoted you verses from the Scriptures that God forwarned us of this. If you are seeking for the truth, then you need to read and understand scriptures of other people’s faith too. Your ignorance and lack of respects and understanding in other people’s faith is apparent when you said Muslims pray to a place, which I assume is Mecca. Muslims don’t pray to Mecca, its just a directional guide to pray, just like Jews pray towards Jerusalem. As they said if you want to know what the world is really about, then you need to get out from the boundary of your home and travel around the world else your knowledge of the world is limited by what you read or see on the TV which is often distorted by the writers or the producers to add more sensations to their works.
You accused me as being a deceiver, an antichrist and the funny thing is that I am not angry at you, in fact I feel sorry for you. Sorry bcos I have reason out with logic on all the points I said while you just make accusations and quote verses.
You boasted that the Bible speaks of you reflected how limited you are with the teachings of Jesus. Jesus teaches humbleness and Jesus, as great as he is, will never said the Bible speak of him. He don’t have to, people will just know and will said that for him. Only the insecured and the confused will talk highly of themselves and make accusations of others.
You see, George, the problem with Christianity today is that its no longer about the teachings of Jesus as it used to be (Believe in one God and keep His Commandments), but its now all about Jesus himself (Trinity, Sacrifice, Original Sins, Atonement).
As you said you cannot talk to me anymore ( and I understand why) but I will always welcome any discussions with you.
Till then you take care and keep on searching the truth bcos the truth will set you free..
Hi Natt Orthodox,
Interesting example of Trinity.. But it still don’t really explain the Trinity in its true sense. Here’s why.
The light and the heat are the characteristics of the Sun. God created the Sun with these characteristics – brightness (light) and heat. They are and will always be part of the Sun. If you separate the brightness (light) and the heat from the Sun (coexist individually, if that can be done), then the light and the heat will cease to exist as they by themselves cannot generate light and heat respectively. . By definition, Trinity is about God is the Father, God is the Son and God is the Holy Spirit. But at the same time, the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit and the the Holy Spirit is not the Father. This means there are 3 separate Beings and they individually can coexist but they are Gods too as God is the Father, God is the Son and God is the Holy Spirit so, there are, at any one time, 3 Gods since they can coexist separately individually. The obvious reason why they can coexist separately as individuals is bcos the Son and the Holy Ghost are not (or part of) the characteristics of God, (like the case of the heat and light which cannot coexist individually). If they are, then they cannot coexist individually. Lets take your example again of the Sun, Light and Heat. The light and the heat cannot coexist as individual entities as they need the Sun for their existence. The light will never be the Sun and the heat will never be the Sun as the light and the heat are created by the existence of the Sun. Putting this in a Biblical terms, there is only one Sun and thru its existence, created heat and light and you cannot say that the light and the heat, by themselves is or equal to the Sun..
Jim M or George,
I read this sentence a few times in the post and I don’t know who was the first to write it, so I am addressing both of you – humbly.
“THE HOLY BIBLE SAYS SATAN WILL THINK TO CHANGE THE LAWS AND THE TIMES.”
Yes, the Bible says that, but it does NOT say that he will change the BIBLE (unless he is out there now using someone to re-write the Bible – and I have already heard that there are some “bibles” out there that have changed the HE of God to a SHE, and there have been some more such changes – but only those that do not know who God really is, will fall for such garbage). Yes, I know that God does not have a gender, but Jesus did say that he is our FATHER in heaven. Also, when people talk about Allah, they also say “he” about Allah. You sure don’t want to use “it” for God the Creator.
Satan does not have to change the WRITTEN words of the Bible in order to change laws and times. One of those laws and times has already been changed in a big way – the keeping of the Sabbath commandment. Satan turned it into Sunday – BUT, and this is a very BIG BUT – the commandment is still found in the Bible. So, Satan did not distort the Bible, only the people’s thinking. (And just to make sure, I am NOT from the SDA church – I am just making a legitimate observation.)
Satan is too smart to change or distort the Bible. Doesn’t it say also that he presents himself to us in angel’s clothing and as an angel of light in order to deceive us? He is using “good” things, just as they are, but putting a slant on those things.
The Jews kept the Old Testament quite zealously/jealously and many memorized the whole OT throughout the ages, so I don’t think there has been any distortion. There may have been some INSIGNIFICANT words that have been copied wrongly but they did not change the MESSAGE throughout the Bible that God wanted us to know – about the salvation He was going to provide through His Messiah – and He gave the EXACT dates of when this was to happen. He gave the exact date when and how this Messiah was to die and what would be the future of that Messiah. ALL the prophecies fit JESUS EXACTLY. Some physicist made a calculation that anyone fulfilling ONLY 8 of those prophecies would be 1 in 1,and some large number of zeros after that one – so many zeros that there have not been so many people on this earth since the creation of man!!!
And it was JESUS who said that many will come after him and say that they are the messiah, but that we should beware of them because they are wolves in sheep’s clothing. So who came after Jesus that made a big impact on this world? Without offending anyone, I have to say it was Muhammad. And we have only to look at the fruit that the Muslims are producing, and have produced in the past (sword), to see on which side they are. They, themselves, are indoctrinated to think that it is a religion of peace and/or submission – but on the other hand, they are taught that anyone that does not embrace Islam should be killed. Their goal is to “Islamize” the whole world. They don’t give you a choice. They use the sword to do it (see past and present history), while the TRUE Christians are TAUGHT by JESUS NOT to use the sword but to do everything in LOVE.
Sure, the Catholic Church used Inquisition to make everyone Christian – but, see, that too is satan’s DISTORTION of the New Testament – and the NT STILL writes that we should do EVERYTHING in LOVE. There has been NO distortion in the WRITTEN NT.
One more thing: the Muslims are also awaiting THEIR messiah – the MAHDI. But, will that messiah fulfill God’s prophecies or is he going to be satan’s DISTORTION, too? You can be sure that he won’t be coming in peace (like Jesus) but with a sword.
So, to summarize, the WRITTEN Bible is NOT distorted by satan – he is way too clever to do that – but he did distort the thinking of the people. And the true Bible will stand as it did for thousands of years – until Jesus comes back.
Again, I really did not wish to offend anyone of the Islam religion – I have heard some really awesome stories of Muslims accepting Jesus as their Savior – Jesus has been doing miracles in Muslim countries where having a Bible is a death sentence (again, the “sword”), so Jesus comes and VISITS the Muslims himself in visions and dreams. All say that, even if they never heard of Jesus (for some reason or other – because I have been corrected before and told that anyone who says he is a Muslim and says he didn’t hear about Jesus – is actually not a true Muslim – but I am sure that there are reasons that SOME of them would not have heard of Him) – so, all of them said that they KNEW it was JESUS standing before them (and not Muhammad). Jesus loves the Muslims so much that He, himself, comes and visits them. He really does not wish that even one soul be lost for eternity. So, where the Bibles are forbidden and where missionaries cannot enter, He does the job by Himself. Blessed is He.
To add to my above comment re satan (or people, for that matter) distorting/changing the Bible.
Much has been written here re the 1st Commandment vs. the Trinity, and about worshipping idols and icons.
But here, also, the Bible has not been distorted or changed. What was written thousands of years ago, still stands WRITTEN. What is distorted/changed is the human “outlook/view” on those verses – and here, too, satan did his job well. In fact, most of the commandments in the WHOLE Bible have been distorted/changed by satan – but NOT by changing what is WRITTEN in the Bible.
So, the written Bible is not distorted – satan knew how to distort the UNDERSTANDING of those issues without changing the Bible.
Hi Pricilla,
Its been awhile since I commented on any discussions since I thought certain things are best left to the individual beliefs, but since you mentioned about Islam and since Jim and George are Christians too, I felt its my responsibility to correct some of your perceptions you have about Islam or Muslims.
“Who came after Jesus and make a big impact on this world ?” By this world, I assumed you meant people’s faiths and beliefs as the big change cannot be a physical change like transportations or communications. Most people, including Muslims, will think its Muhammad who came after Jesus as Islam did make a big impact to the peoples’ faiths and beliefs. As always, the truth is the least of what the majority expected or want to believe. The man who came after Jesus is not Muhammad but Saul of Tarsus or better known as St. Paul the Apostle and he did made a big impact on the faiths and beliefs of millions as he was said to be the man responsible for what Christianity is today. Paul himself has never met Jesus but the story goes that on a journey from Jerusalem to Damascus, he claimed the ‘resurrected Jesus’ appeared before him in a great light (Satan in disguised?). Paul was struck blind, but after 3 days his sight was restored and Paul began to preach, among other things, that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah and the Son of God and is the Lord (God). He discarded or relaxed the teachings of the Law of Moses saying that these laws had either been fulfilled in the life of Jesus or were symbolic precursors of Jesus. I am not going into details on Paul’s teachings here (too long) as you can research yourself on Paul which according to James, Jesus’ brother, contradicted Jesus’ teachings.
You implied that Islam is spread by the sword and “while the TRUE Christians are TAUGHT by JESUS NOT to use the sword but to do everything in LOVE.” I want to quote you a verse from the Bible that seemed to imply Jesus too preached ‘by the sword’.
“But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them–bring them here and kill them in front of me.” Luke 19:27
I want to believe that this verse is a fabrication and I take comfort that the Quran do not have a collection of this event. The Quran spoke highly of all His Prophets including Jesus, in fact his name was mentioned 27 times in the Quran compared to Muhammad, who was only mentioned 4 times. Islam do not teach violence but what It did say about ‘fighting’ is that if one is oppressed or his faith is threatened, then one should fight back for one’s honour and from being oppressed. However, if the oppressors stopped, then one should also stop (fighting) and make amends.
There is no compulsion in Islam as stated in the Quran so there’s no such thing as “that anyone that does not embrace Islam should be killed.” What the Islamic missionaries are doing is called ‘Dakwah’ or spreading God’s and His prophets messages through education. They cannot ‘Islamize’ anyone by force, as only God can open one’s heart to accept Islam. Muslims believe ‘Man can only plan, but its God who determine the results.’ So Muslims are taught not to despair if they do not get what they plan for. But human being human, many acted irrationally when they do not get what they plan for, and some even blame God or worst, acted violently in the name of God.
Again, I have never heard of a person being killed for having a Bible. If that is true then that action (of killing) is of his own, not the teaching of Islam. The Bible is a s Book which the Quran confirmed the truth in its contents but some of its verses through time, has been distorted by Man. Still Muhammad said the Bible and the other Scriptures that came earlier before the Quran, should still be respected as they still have verses that may have escaped distortion, and these verses are God’s words.
About ‘Muslims’ who converted to Christianity, I can show you links that show Christians including Church Pastors, Church Ministers and Priests who converted to Islam after researching and finding what they said the truth in Islam. But what will that do ? It will be like kids showing who got the most sweets…and you and me are too mature for this kind of discussions.
May the One and Only God Bless us and guide us to the true and straight path.
Hello Seeking Truth,
I honestly have to say that I never saw that verse in the Bible. I went to look it up in other translations, and guess what, you are right. And I have read the Bible through tens of times. Wow, you learn something new every day.
But going to that quotation, I just want to point out that it was a parable – and since Jesus REALLY WAS preaching peace and love – I just don’t know what he wanted to teach us by that. I am quite sure, that it did not mean Jesus himself – because it is the only place I think that such a sentence is found coming out of his mouth. And since it is a parable, I just don’t know what he meant by it.
When I said “Who came after…” – the “who” implies a person. “WHAT came after…” would imply transportation and such.
Paul, Peter and the other apostles were not messiah’s or prophets and that is why I didn’t mention them, even though they had a hand in spreading the gospel. So there is Jesus and after that Muhammad, and I stand by that.
Christians are being persecuted in all Islam countries, their churches are being burnt, and many of them are killed. The Christians are immigrating to the West, and the Middle-East and African Muslim countries are having less and less Christians – so, I guess that it helps not to go into Jihad right now – as the Christians are doing the Muslims a favor by leaving. What will be in the future, we will yet see.
As for the Bible, I did not hear either of anyone being killed for being in possession, but one cannot bring a Bible (even their own personal one) into more than 30 Muslim countries, because you can be punished for that and even killed for it (depends on who you fall at that time).
Here are some verses I came upon in Quran and Hadith (and there are many more). Each one propagates either fighting, casting terror, murder, crucifixion, cutting off of the feet, hands and fingers, cutting the heads off – for those that do not accept Allah. I think that is violence (sword) – there is no other word for it. Jesus did not teach violence. But here it says that Jihad is the way of Allah. Even the God in the Old Testament was not so violent to Jews who turned to the idol worship. He just let other nations take them into captivity – and even that was for a certain period of time.
Quran (2:216) – “FIGHTING is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.”
Quran (3:151) – “Soon shall We CAST TERROR into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority”.
Quran (5:33) – “The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, THAT THEY SHOULD BE MURDERED OR CRUCIFIED OR THEIR HANDS AND THEIR FEET SHOULD BE CUT OFF ON OPPOSITE SIDES OR THEY SHOULD BE IMPRISONED; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement”
Quran (8:12) – “I will CAST TERROR into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore STRIKE OFF THEIR HEADS AND STRIKE OFF EVERY FINGERTIP OF THEM”
Quran (8:15) – “O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey’s end.”
Quran (9:29) – “FIGHT those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”
Quran (9:123) – “O you who believe! FIGHT those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness.”
Quran (66:9) – “O Prophet! STRIVE AGAINST the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey’s end.”
Bukhari (8:387) – Allah’s Apostle said, “I have been ordered TO FIGHT the people till they say: ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah’. And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally.”
Muslim (20:4645) – “…He (the Messenger of Allah) did that and said: There is another act which elevates the position of a man in Paradise to a grade one hundred (higher), and the elevation between one grade and the other is equal to the height of the heaven from the earth. He (Abu Sa’id) said: What is that act? He replied: JIHAD IN THE WAY OF ALLAH! JIHAD IN THE WAY OF ALLAH!”
Tabari 9:69 “KILLING Unbelievers is a small matter to us” The words of Muhammad, prophet of Islam.
Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 992: – “Fight everyone in the way of Allah and KILL those who disbelieve in Allah.” Muhammad’s instructions to his men prior to a military raid.
Hi Pricilla,
I’m aware that you meant ‘who’ implies a person. I’m just clarifying that the ‘who’ must have made a big impact to the faiths and beliefs of the people and not to things like ‘transportations’ and ‘communications’. People like Henry Ford, the Wrights bothers and Alex G. Bell are the ‘whos’ who make big impact to ‘transportations’ and ‘communications’.
“Paul, Peter and the other apostles were not messiah’s or prophets and that is why I didn’t mention them, even though they had a hand in spreading the gospel.” Why not? as the issue here is not whether they are messiahs or prophets, the issue here is that the ‘who’ must have made an impact so big that it change millions of people’s belief and faith. If they are messiahs or prophets then they will not have preached gospels contradicting to God’s Laws. After all, a messiah and a prophet is chosen by God (false prophets are not) and Jesus did warn of false prophets and people after him who preached in his name. Muhammad did not preached in Jesus’ name but in God’s name. Muhammad glorified Jesus and keep Moses’ Laws. It was Paul who preached in Jesus’ name and discarded Moses’ Laws.
“Christians are being persecuted in all Islam countries, their churches are being burnt, and many of them are killed.” I travelled extensively in the Far East and Islamic countries like Indonesia and Malaysia. In fact, I’m now posted in Malaysia and I’ve been here for the last 3-4 years and your statement is really off the mark by miles. You need to pack your bags and bring your family to Malaysia for a vacation and you will be surprised how free the Christians are here and Malaysia is an Islamic country, mind you. One thing I have learned is never judged a person until you have known him/her and never believe all what you read or heard from others until you have cross-checked with other sources of information. Interestingly, this advice was given to me by a Christian friend.
You quoted many verses from the Quran that imply Islam encourage violence. Well, like the verse (Luke 19:27) we really do not know under what circumstances these verses meant. It may sound violence to us now but during those times these verses are quoted it may be the right thing to do. I suspected Luke 19:27 and the verses you quoted from the Quran could be during the time of religious wars where one’s faith is being threatened. But only verses from the Quran ? The Bible too has many verses on violence/killings similar to that of the Quran’s, not just Luke 19:27. The reason you cannot find them is because your mind close your eyes. Let me list some of the verses, and there are many, in the Bible that imply killings :
– Kill Followers of Other Religions.
“If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst.” Deuteronomy 13:7-12
“Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death.”Deuteronomy 17:2-5
– Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
“But if this charge is true (that she wasn’t a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father’s house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst.” Deuteronomy 22:20-21
– Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
“Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” Deuteronomy 13:13-19
– Kill Nonbelievers
“They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.” 2 Chronicles 15:12-13
– Kill People Who Don’t Listen to Priests
“Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. “ Deuteronomy 17:12
May the One and Only God Bless us and guide us to the true and straight path.
Hi Pricilla,
I thought about you comment again and I forgot to mention this. You must be careful what Bible you choose because Satan has removed verses from some Bibles. For instance Matthew 17:21 is not in New International Version (©1984), New Living Translation (©2007), English Standard Version (©2001), GOD’S WORD Translation (©1995) and English Revised Version.
You can verify this by going to Google and entering this verse and selecting bible/cc.
Satan has removed verses from some online Bible versions that are not listed as well.
The devil is a cunning liar.
The Lord rebuke you Satan. Blessed be the most holy Name of Jesus without end. Blessed is He who is coming in the name of the Lord. All Power and Glory to God the Most High.
Hi Seeking Truth,
You keep repeating Luke 19:27 which is probably the only verse in which Jesus is talking about violence. I told you, respectfully, that it is a parable (story with a point) and that I don’t know what it could mean because it is SO NOT Jesus.
Peter, Paul etc. are NOT the issue here. If nobody had taken up to spread what Muhammad was teaching, nobody would know about him. Peter, etc. fall in that same category for Jesus’ teachings. So, in both religions, the spreaders of the teachings are NOT the teachers themselves. And I am comparing Jesus vs. Muhammad and NOT vs. their followers.
The difference between the verses you gave and the ones I quoted is this:
Your verses talk specifically about the Israelites and what should be done WITHIN their own community. It does not say that they should go out and fight every nation that does not believe in God. The laws were for Israelite community ONLY.
We even see in Jonah that God himself didn’t really want to destroy (“violence”) even non-Israelite nations that were sinning, but sent Jonah to Nineveh to warn them to turn away from their sin – and ONLY IF THEY DIDN’T listen – God HIMSELF would have destroyed them.
And my eyes are not closed. God of the Old Testament does not advocate violence and coercion towards other nations – and neither does Jesus.
1. I f YOUR own brother, YOUR son, YOUR… (means Israelites ONLY not the whole world)
2. Suppose a man or woman among YOU … (among Israelites)
3. Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble AMONG YOU (among Israelites)
4. 2 Chronicles 15:12-13 The verse you gave on killing non-believers is ALSO for Israelites because you left out verse 9 for whom that verse was intended – 2 Chronicles 15:9 And he gathered ALL JUDAH AND BENJAMIN, AND THOSE FROM EPHRAIM, MANASSEH, AND SIMEON who were residing with them…
5. Deuteronomy 17:12 Also talks about Israelites only
6. Even the verse about virgins is for Israelites.
All these laws were for Israelites ONLY and they did not preach killing or fighting other nations that did not obey THESE laws.
“You quoted many verses from the Quran that imply Islam encourage violence. Well, like the verse (Luke 19:27) we really do not know under what circumstances these verses meant. It may sound violence to us now but during those times these verses are quoted it may be the right thing to do. I suspected Luke 19:27 and the verses you quoted from the Quran could be during the time of religious wars where one’s faith is being threatened.”
Violence is NEVER a RIGHT THING TO DO (unless it is self-defense). Religious wars?? That is exactly my point. Islam advocates religious wars, whereas God of the Bible and Jesus do not.
“One thing I have learned is never judged a person until you have known him/her and never believe all what you read or heard from others until you have cross-checked with other sources of information.”
I usually do check out the information before I open my mouth.
When I said that churches are being burned and Christians are being persecuted in all Muslim countries, please think big – I did not mean that they are doing it on a daily basis – at least not the burning.
But here is something that will let you know that they did burn churches in Malaysia (and they did burn churches and killed and/or persecuted Christians in India, Iraq, Egypt, Iran, Ethiopia, etc.)
They do mention in some articles that the ones doing the burning are “extremists” – but let’s wake up. Where did they get the idea if not from Quran? In the second article it says that UNDER THEIR CONSTITUTION Malays (non-Christian and non-Muslim Malays) MUST BE MUSLIMS. So, even today, Islam is violent towards those of other religions and forces them to accept Islam by making LAWS for such a situation – or else…and that means that under the law, the government is ALLOWED TO PERSECUTE those of non-Islam faith. Persecutions are usually done by governments.
Jan. 8, 2010 Al Jazeera
FOUR CHRISTIAN CHURCHES in Malaysia have been attacked amid tensions over the use of the word “Allah” by non-Muslims in the country.
Attackers threw a Molotov cocktail which failed to ignite at a church in the state of Selangor on Friday afternoon, media reports said.
The incident comes hours after a petrol bomb was thrown at a church in the capital, Kuala Lumpur, as well as attackers trying to set another two ablaze in a nearby suburb.
Police also received reports of CARS displaying Christian symbols having their windscreens smashed in the suburb of Bangsar.
Jan. 9, 2010
Muslims in Malaysia struck a fourth church on Saturday as the government tried to soothe tensions arising from a row over the use of the word “Allah” to refer to the Christian God.
THE delicate political balance between Malaysia’s ethnic and religious groups has been rocked by a series of attacks against churches, blamed on Muslim fanatics. They began after the High Court ruled on December 31st that a Catholic weekly, the Herald, could use the term “Allah” in its Malay-language edition.
This overturned an existing ban and offended some Muslims, who claim that “Allah” is exclusive to Islam, even though the word means “God” in Malay, and is used by other faiths in, for example, Indonesia. THE SUPPOSED FEAR IS THAT CHRISTIANS ARE PLOTTING TO CONVERT MALAYS, WHO MAKE UP SOME 60% OF THE POPULATION AND, UNDER THE CONSTITUTION, MUST ALSO BE MUSLIMS.
(I must remind you that the whole purpose of my original comment in the beginning was to show that the WRITTEN Bible was NOT changed or corrupted and you have made a side-turn – which is also interesting but not the purpose of my original comment.)
Hi Priscilla ,
I dont think you know anything about Islam , stop taking things out of context from the Quraan. From reading your blog , I get the impression that the only thing you understand is that Islam was spread by the sword, which is not true. Yes , at that time there were lots of battles , people fought for religion just like at present were we fight over land and oil. Was Christianity spread by the sword at the time of the Crusades, If was prejudiced I would say yes but I am not.
Hi George ,
Satan did not remove or change versus from the Holy Bible , man did.
Too many version of the Bible has change God’s words. Man has editted the original bible too many times and now at present what we are left with is a bible was given to us to suit us. God said not to consume pork , ” damn , no more fried bacon ” okay let me chose another Bible.
Hope you get my point.
Weed,
The difference between Crusades and Islam is:
In Islam religious violence is advocated in Quran whereas it is not in the Bible. Crusades is still another thing satan – and not Jesus – used to distort Christianity. Muhammad PREACHED religious violence. It is written in black and white. God of the Old Testament and Jesus did not preach violence toward other nations.
Weed,
“…now at present what we are left with is a bible was given to us to suit us. God said not to consume pork , ” damn , no more fried bacon ” okay let me chose another Bible.”
No, we are NOT left with a Bible that was given TO US TO SUIT US – it is man who INTERPRETS the Bible (any translation) who is INTERPRETING the verses to suit himself.
There is no Bible that has erased the verses about eating pork.
On the other hand, the Bible translators do quite a good job and make notes for verses that were not included in the BODY of the text – which give you the opportunity to see how the text appears in other translations. So, even if some verses are not in the body of the text, they appear in notes. Nothing is erased or left out OR MADE TO SUIT US.
Hi Priscilla,
Just something for you to ponder , please read through…
2 Kings 2:23-24
He [Elisha] went up from there to Bethel; and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, “Go away, baldhead! Go away, baldhead!” When he turned around and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two she-bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys. (NRSV
Exodus 32:27-29
Then he said to them, “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’ “The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. Then Moses said, “You have been set apart to the LORD today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day.”(NIV)
2 Chronicles 25:12
The sons of Judah also captured 10,000 alive and brought them to the top of the cliff and threw them down from the top of the cliff, so that they were all dashed to pieces.(NASB)
Judges 12:5-6
Then the Gileadites took the fords of the Jordan against the Ephraimites. Whenever one of the fugitives of Ephraim said, “Let me go over,” the men of Gilead would say to him, “Are you an Ephraimite?” When he said, “No” they said to him, “Then say Shibboleth” and he said, “Sibboleth,” for he could not pronounce it right. Then they seized him and killed him at the fords of the Jordan. Forty-two thousand of the Ephraimites fell at that time. (NRSV)
1 Kings 20:28-30
Then a man of God came and spoke to the king of Israel, and said, “Thus says the LORD: ‘Because the Syrians have said, “The LORD is God of the hills, but He is not God of the valleys,” therefore I will deliver all this great multitude into your hand, and you shall know that I am the LORD.’” And they encamped opposite each other for seven days.
So it was that on the seventh day the battle was joined; and the children of Israel killed one hundred thousand foot soldiers of the Syrians in one day. But the rest fled to Aphek, into the city; then a wall fell on twenty-seven thousand of the men who were left. (NKJV)
Deuteronomy 2:32-34
Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, unto battle at Jahaz. And Jehovah our God delivered him up before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed every inhabited city, with the women and the little ones; we left none remaining. (ASV)
Deuteronomy 3:3-6
So the LORD our God delivered Og also, king of Bashan, with all his people into our hand, and we smote them until no survivor was left. We captured all his cities at that time; there was not a city which we did not take from them: sixty cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan. All these were cities fortified with high walls, gates and bars, besides a great many unwalled towns. We utterly destroyed them, as we did to Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women and children of every city. (NASB)
1 Samuel 15:3,8
Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’ ” … He took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and all his people he totally destroyed with the sword.(NIV)
Hosea 13:16
Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open. (NRSV)
In the bible the word slaughter appears at least 56 times, slay appears 118 times, slew shows up 171 times, & smote is written more than 226 times.
I also forget my favourites :
Exodus 31:15 ” . . . whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.”
Leviticus 20:9 “For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death . . . ”
I think all of us should’ve been dead by now..lol
Weed and others,
Wow, you are really making me work. But thanks, I am glad for the opportunity to “travel” through the Bible.
Weed,
Exodus 32:27-29 deals with Israelite themselves and not OTHER nations.
2 Chronicles 25:12 is a political battle – as there are political wars today – not a coercion of another nation to accept the religion of the Israelites.
Judges 12:5–6 Gileadites were Israelites – again a battle between Israelites themselves and not coercion of other nations to accept Israelite religion
Hosea 13:16 Samaria was the center of the Northern Kingdom of Israel – again doesn’t say anything about religious coercion of other nations.
1 Samuel 15:3, 8 – not coercion of others to accept Israelite religion.
1 Kings 20:28–30 This was a battle of survival and as we have seen throughout the OT, God uses nations to punish other nations for their sins. He used the Babylonians to punish Israel, and here – though it’s a battle of SURVIVAL for Israel (read from the beginning of that portion) – God is also using Israel to punish Syrians for their sin. He is NOT using Israel to coerce the Syrians into accepting the Israelite religion.
Deuteronomy 2:32–34; Deuteronomy 3:3–6 These 2 passages are similar. God promised Israelites that He would bring them to the Promised Land and that He would fight their battles by giving those that would prevent them to do so into their hands. These verses are also a variant of political battles since it was NOT a coercion of those nations to accept Israelite religion.
2 Kings 2:23–24 I don’t know why Elisha did this (there are commentaries on this) but AGAIN it is Israelite INTERNAL issue – not of other nations.
“In the bible the word slaughter appears at least 56 times, slay appears 118 times, slew shows up 171 times, & smote is written more than 226 times.”
I can Google also to see how many times it says the same thing in Quran. But in the BIBLE NOT ONE of those verses advocates killing, slaughter, slay, slew, smote for COERCION of other nations to accept Israelite (or, for that matter, Christian) religion.
Exodus 31:15, Leviticus 20:9 These verses also, are laws for ISRAELITES and do not talk of COERCION of others to accept their religion.
Hi Pricilla,
I always thought the Bible is for all Christians. Guess I was wrong. Sorry about my ignorance on that. Seems to me in the Bible, all the violence are only linked to the Israelites. So is the Bible for the Israelites only ? What about Christians who are not Israelites ? Do they have different Bibles ? Is the God of the Israelites different from the God of the other Christians ? Do the Bible have different laws for the Israelites and another set of laws for the other Christians ? Perhaps, you can enlighten people like me about this. After all, we are here not only to present our views but also to learn and correct our misconceptions.
“You keep repeating Luke 19:27 which is probably the only verse in which Jesus is talking about violence.”
I try to limit the verses that imply negatively about Jesus since the Quran speaks highly of Jesus, but, just to prove to you its not the only verse in the Bible, let me quote another verse that may imply Jesus preached by the sword and did not bring peace.
“Do not think that I have come to send peace on Earth. I did not come to send peace, but a sword.” Matthew 10:34
“Where did they get the idea if not from Quran?” Its sad that people continue to associate Muslim extremists with the Quran. Don’t hang the gun that kill but hang the man that pulls the trigger. I don’t think its right for me or anyone to associate Christian extremists with the Bible eventho’ you said all the verses that depict violence in the Bible are only associated with the Israelites. After all, all these Religious extremists need is an excuse for their violence acts in the name of God.
About the burning of churches in Malaysia, there are also mosques that are burnt too and heads of pigs thrown into the mosques compounds. However, the scale of the violence are not as ‘sensational’ as the medias, especially the foreign medias seem to project. I should know as I am here in Malaysia. This violent acts are carried our by small groups of people, mainly youths who probably has nothing better to do. Anyway, the Malaysian Law finally did allow the use of ‘allah’ in the Malay Bibles and that is that.
However, lets see why this dispute happened in the first place. It started because the Christian Church here wanted to have the Bibles translated to the local language, which is the Malay. This is not an issue, however, they wanted to use the word ‘allah’ for ‘god’ in their Malay Bibles. This became an issue as the One and Only God of the Muslims is also Allah. Their intention of using ‘allah’ is suspicious to the Muslims as all the English translated Bibles in the country do not have the word ‘allah’ so why do you need to have ‘allah’ in the Malay translated Bibles when the Christians knew the word ‘allah’ can be mistaken for ‘Allah’ who is the Almighty God of the Muslims. ‘allah’ is an Arabic word for god and the Malay word for god is ‘tuhan’. I can understand the Muslims concern here as there’s really no basis for the Christians to use the word ‘allah’ in their Malay-translated Bibles in Malaysia. Tolerance and respect should also be practiced by all religions if we are expected to coexist peacefully. Muslims should respect the Christians if they want to have a Malay Bible and the Christians should respect the Muslims and show tolerance and understanding by not using the word ‘allah’ in the Malay Bible as there is an alternative Malay word for god. Unlike Indonesia, the word ‘allah’ is used extensively by both the Christians and the Muslims alike, and in their Churches, Christians use ‘Tuhan Allah’ while in Malaysia, Christians commonly do not use ‘allah’ in their Churches.
“I must remind you that the whole purpose of my original comment in the beginning was to show that the WRITTEN Bible was NOT changed or corrupted and you have made a side-turn – which is also interesting but not the purpose of my original comment.”
Phew !…OK, I will comment this in my next posting.
May the One and Only God Bless us and guide us to the true and straight path.
Hi Pricilla,
About your earlier original comment that “satan distorted the Bible, NOT by changing what is WRITTEN in the Bible, but what is distorted/changed is the human “outlook/view” on those verses.” I am not sure about that as in reality what change/distort the human ‘outlook/view’ is what he hear and read. If satan want to confuse or lead people astray, the best place to start is to distort the verses of the Scriptures.
Will you consider contradicting verses in the Bible as distortions ? I would think so, as an example (not from the Bible), if one verse said ‘the cup is broken’ and another verse describing the same cup said ‘the cup is not broken’ then one of these verses must have been distorted as both cannot be true. That’s why God warned us in 2 Peter 3:16-17 that the Scriptures can be distorted.by man who are obviously moved or inspired by satan.
May the One and Only God Bless us and guide us to the true and straight path.
Seeking Truth,
Come on, Seeking Truth – I didn’t expect this of you. 🙂 Again you are getting to the nitty gritty. The Bible is for ALL humanity (not just the Jews and Christians) and we learn from the EXAMPLES in it. But the LAWS were for Israel and we LEARN how God dealt with their obedience or disobedience. You have to admit that the OT is the history of Israelite nation and God’s relationship to them – for blessing or for punishment. They were the only ones possessing the OT writings until it was translated into Greek. It was considered THEIR book. So, I would say “Yes” those verses were for Israel at that time. They were not given to other nations. But we can LEARN from them.
But, in any case, ALL THOSE VERSES (whether for Israel or for whole humanity) DO NOT TALK ABOUT WARS ON ANY OTHER NATION FOR RELIGIOUS PURPOSES (and that was the issue of our discussion, I think). God of the OT does not FORCE Himself on anyone through violence.
I KNEW 🙂 you were going to go for Matthew 10:34. But read it in context and you will see that the “sword” is metaphorical. Jesus knew that his teachings would bring discord among people. And the “sword” would “divide” families, friends, relatives into camps – for Jesus, or against Jesus. And, He was right. Even until this day.
You really challenge me. In answering you, I have to really think about the issues.
Hi Seeking Truth,
Let’s see what this verse says exactly.
2 Peter 3:16 (ESV) …as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are HARD to UNDERSTAND, which the IGNORANT AND UNSTABLE TWIST to their own destruction, AS THEY DO THE OTHER SCRIPTURES.
In my knowledge of English, I do not see that it says here that the people changed the WRITTEN words of the Bible.
1. “Some things are hard to understand” (things are NOT CHANGED – just hard to understand – maybe having a double/triple meaning).
2. The ignorant and unstable “twist” – i.e. INTERPRET – to suit their cause because they do not wish to obey anything that is hard for them.
3. As they do other scriptures – not only do they twist the MEANING of “hard things” but also of other scriptures.
In the English that I understand, this is not a verse that shows that the WRITTEN Bible was corrupted by “ignorant and unstable” – because the ignorant and unstable probably did not have the access to copying the manuscripts.
Now, if you have specific verses that you can quote that were corrupted and the date (estimated date) when that happened, in this case I await for enlightenment from you. 🙂
Hello to all,
Way to go Sister, I have forced myself to stay out of this one only knowing that a concrete answer would come about… I wasn’t surprised to see it would be you Priscilla :o) I agree, the truth is not of man. Shalom to all, including he who seeks the truth :o), hello brother!
Hi Pricilla,
No, I don’t think its nitty gritty. I was really confused (or you confuse me :)) as to which Christians the Bible was intended to. I know there are Christians who don’t believe in Trinity so do they read the same Bible ?
I know the verse Mathew 10:34 is out of context. I just put it anyway to prove a point that verses if read out of context can give a different meaning…just like many people have been quoting the Quran out of context. Muslim extremists or religious fanatics will quote the Quran out of context to concoct a religious justification for their violence acts while Islam-haters quote the Quran out of context in an effort to show that Islam promotes violence so that they can continue to abuse the Muslims. I am sure the same is happening to the Christians too as I can quote more verses from the KJV Bible which when read in isolation makes the Bible appear to be a primer for evil.
May the One and Only God Bless us and guide us to the true and straight path.
Hi Pricilla,
2 Peter 3:16 (ESV) …”…as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are HARD to UNDERSTAND, which the IGNORANT AND UNSTABLE TWIST to their own destruction, AS THEY DO THE OTHER SCRIPTURES. “
You don’t see anything in this verse as a warning from God as how Satan will use man to distort the Scriptures ? Really ? OK, lets leave it as it is then.
May the One and Only God Bless us and guide us to the true and straight path.
Hi Weed,
You cannot see Satan’s influence in the removal of the verses? Ephesians 6:11, Ephesians 6:12
Satan is is trying to decieve as many people as possible by using foul and cunning techniques to influence people to not believe in God. Satan knows John 15:5. Many responsible for the changes in the bibles were decieved and did not believe that Jesus was God and a few did not believe in God at all. For example they leave out dozens of references to the deity of Jesus Christ.
Example: Luke 2:33
American King James Version
And Joseph and his mother marveled at those things which were spoken of him.
New Living Translation
Jesus’ parents were amazed at what was being said about him.
My point was to choose your Bible carefully. In Galatians 1:8-9 Paul said that those that pervert the gospel will be accursed.
Experts recommend:
Protestants original Authorized King James (1611 – old English)
Catholics Catholic Douay Reims – older versions
Hi Brother Rams,
How have you been doing ? Hope everything is going well for you and your family.
May the One and Only God Bless us and guide us to the true and straight path.
Hi Seeking Truth,
Except for Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses (who DO have corrupt Bibles and additional Book of THEIR OWN prophet – not a Biblical prophet) – the rest of the Christian world uses the same Bible. These 2 I know of. Maybe there are others that have cropped up lately because satan is working really hard to discredit God…
Again, what can I say, the words speak for themselves. It is not only one single verse advocating violence, but many more than I even quoted. They are there black on white. It cannot be that they are ALL out of context.
But not to start getting antagonistic on this particular issue, should we wrap it up for now? 🙂
Hello seeking truth, thank you my brother the same feelings towards you and yours… as we continue a path to the one and only Creator :o)
Hi Pricilla, thank you Sis, I pray you and yours as well are doing great!!! At times I like to just sit back and read, not an easy thing for me to do :o) Much Shalom :o) in Y’Shua, Amein :o)
PS: On a tangent, maybe you guys could give me some input on my website… it is a business model I am working on, the premise of same is based on Genesis 1:28, where our Heavenly Creator gives us stewardship of His creation :o), a creation most of us take for granted … If you have comments you can post them in the “contact us” link. Please do not post your remarks here… I feel this topic should follow it’s intended purpose, though we have gone off it’s track a few times. May we always Bless Him that we be Blessed :o) come soon, come soon !!!
Hi Seeking Truth,
2 Peter 3:16 “You don’t see anything in this verse as a warning from God as how Satan will use man to distort the Scriptures?”
Yes, I see that satan will use man to distort the scripture by INTERPRETING it the way he wants. It has been done since the beginning – and there have been many heretical sects throughout the 2,000 years of the NT and even longer for OT – but the WRITTEN words were the SAME THEN as they ARE NOW. ONLY THE INTERPRETATIONS of those words by man WERE DISTORTED.
Even today you have people who distort the written words of the Bible. I had a friend who got pregnant before getting married and she quoted to me this verse, knowing full well that we should not have intimate relationships with opposite sex before marriage.
Romans 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
So, the WORDS were still UNCORRUPTED in the Bible, but they were corrupted in her MIND and USE of them – her INTERPRETATION of those words. As long as she got married, the pre-marital sex and pregnancy were for her “in all things God works for the good of those who love him” because that INTERPRETATION fit her purpose.
As I said, if you can show me anything distorted in WRITING, and what it said BEFORE it was distorted, I’d be glad to know.
I agree Pricilla, and the reason why in prior posts I touched on mans’ influence on the ancient text, how in order to better understand it’s depth and breath (also breadth) we must put religion aside, all religion. My point then as it is now is that our obligation as followers of the truth is to go back in history and understand how man has affected it. In this I believe we better define what we are called to do, to seek that we may find. Scripture is Holy, Set Apart, and man is called try to be, in that man has and will continue to fail as such the varied different points of view, that of religion. But you are correct, scripture is Holy.
Hi Pricilla,
Maybe we have a different understanding of what ‘distortion in the Scriptures’ means. My understanding of ‘distortion in the Scriptures’ is contradicting accounts of a same event by 2 (or more) different witnesses. In other words, one of these witnesses must be lying OR the event never happen in the first place.
As an example, if you read Matthew (28:1-11), Mark (16:1-20), Luke (24:1-12), and John (20: 1-18), you will find contradicting stories of the same event. They all agreed that the tomb was guarded for three days. However, they reported the discovery of the empty tomb differently.
– Matthew (28) and John (20) reported that Mary Magdalene and the other Mary were the first to discover the tomb.
– Mark (16) reports that Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, AND Salome were the first to discover the empty tomb.
– Mathew (28) reports that there was an earthquake that removed the rock from over the tomb. He says that an angel caused it. An important event but the other gospels do not mention of an earthquake.
– Matthew and Mark say that only ONE man in white clothes was sitting on the tomb when the woman arrived, and that he was an angel.
– Luke says that TWO men in white clothes, who were angels, were sitting. John says that the two women did not meet anybody the first time they came to the tomb, but when they returned, they thought they saw TWO Angels, but one was JESUS.
– Matthew reports that when the guards reported this to the chief priest, the chief priest paid them a large sum of money, telling them: “You have to say that his disciples came at night and stole his body.” He claims that the soldiers took money and spread the story around and since then, the story had been circulating among the Jews until today. The other gospels do not report of any such thing.
So whose account is correct ?
May the One and Only God Bless us and guide us to the true and straight path.
Shalom Seeking Truth,
So let me see, are you trying to say that the story of Y’Shua’s resurrection is not clear because varied witnesses did not record what they saw identically? Let me ask this, if you have a group of people that arrive at an incident, lets say the law is their too, will they all arrive at the same time? if they do, will they all be focusing on the same things? If they are, will they all see the same thing?… if asked to give a report of what they saw, would their words be identical? Or will they be so skewed that they each miss the main incident (event). Are you saying that a would be judge that is reviewing the event reports will rule that though the witnesses all reported the main incident (in this case main event) from what they each saw, that because their individual reports were not identical, the story is then not worthy of evidence? that even though the varied witnesses agreed that the main event occurred it is not valid because their reports are not identical? I don’t want to be repetitive here but I just want to make sure I understand what you are trying to say.
The fact is that one witness may have seen two angels, the other witness only one angel… even more, another may have said they did not recognize who the angels were and yet one might say they recognized one as the Messiah… the fact is that each witness will report what they saw… to expect any less is to expect a consensus and to expect a consensus is then to expect a lie, for certainly no one individual can report an exact account. The fact does remain however, that multiple witnesses saw that the Messiah was risen.
The varied accounts that you refer to are not identical but all agree on the main event, and the reason why Christianity exists… the story of the main event… that of the raising of the Messiah!!! I am not sure about you, but I would rather have many varied accounts than one account.
According to historians, the story of the writing of the Kuran culminates with the death of Muhammad, were it is thought that during 23 years the angel Gabriel gave him the verses to write; 114 chapters, but wait, we already agreed that he had scribes doing the writing – for he was not literate, at least I think we did, remember?. The problem with that is that historians do not have a record of witnesses (ie: scribes) to that effect.
Giving the benefit of the doubt, and considering there is no evidence of anyone else witnessing Muhammad’s work, one of several things then could have taken place… 1) Gabriel could have instructed Muhammad’s “unmentioned” scribes to write the words (but we know there is no mention of Mohammad using scribes ) 2) Muhammad was overcome by the holy spirit and was able to write the words down (regardless that he was illiterate), or 3) he remembered all the words and later asked his scribes, or wife, or Bakr (who eventually is thought to have compiled the writings), or Ulmar (his chosen successor) to write down a purported 23 years of material that the angel Gabriel would have passed to him. All those possibilities put side, the reality is that there is no record of any witnesses, there is only one witness that saw the reported original verses, that was Muhammad, and unlike the case of the varied witnesses that write of Y’Shua’s main event (that of his resurrection), Muhammad’s event (the verses that lead to the Kuran) only have one witness, himself.
Those that are reported to have known Muhammad are charged with passing down what is believed to later become the first writing of the Kuran (and again said to be compiled by Abu Bakr) and later revised to better represent the idiom of the indigenous language. Muhammad’s wife and Ulmar’s daughter are believed to have safe guarded the supposed works of Muhammad until their respective deaths.
This is what history points to my brother. I recommend that if you are ever called to conduct a fair trial (don’t worry I am not saying you plan to judge anyone), you should first expect that the witnesses will not have exact testimonies, in that you should then look for the main event and not the latter… what will matter most is that there are more than one witnesses. As they say, the more the merrier.
If I understand your argument, it is better to have one witness with one exact story than varied multiple witnesses to define an event… is that your point? I really am not sure. Shalom Brother.
Follow-up to Seeking Truth… On the second chapter I meant, “for certainly no two individuals can report an exact account.” versus ” for certainly no one individual can report an exact account.” I was falling asleep while writing this. Shalom brother.
Interesting thread guys although I haven’t read the whole lot… first time in this website.
I just can’t help but drop a question for Seeking Truth if I may: Are you really ‘seeking’ or trying to defend a ‘truth’ that you have already formed in your mind?
Hi Seeking Truth,
Rams beat me to it and he said it so well, that I won’t repeat it.
One thing that may bother you yet, is the account of the number of angels appearing at the tomb. Even today we have accounts of angels appearing to people, but as it happens, only one sees the angel and the person standing beside him does not – and that is probably because the angel did not want to make himself known to the other person for some reason.
As for the earthquake – it may not have been felt in some places. We had an earthquake a few days ago of some 5+ on the scale and I knew about it only the next day when I read the paper (and I live in a very small country where everybody feels everything!!!) At the time I was actually on the blog, but nobody in our home felt the earthquake although it was felt from the north to the south and across.
The difference in obseration and reporting of events is dependent on the individual – to some one thing is more important than to others and they are going to report what was important to them while the others are goitng to report what was important to others.
Just to add for Seeking Truth: I asked the question because what I see of what is being reported is not the exact number of people nor the earthquake – there’s a bigger event that is happening and is being reported here. I had to ask that previous question because if indeed you are seeking, you might want to consider some thoughts… the Bible conveys the same message consistently over ~1600years through 40 different people – many of these people don’t even know each other yet points to the same message!
About 1500 years earlier, God gave the Israelites instructions which was of prophetic significance. After Jesus’ burial were two Sabbaths on two consecutive days (a weekly Sabbath and a special Sabbath) – no work! So after 48hours, some of Jesus’ followers were so eager to visit the tomb and what they find is a fulfillment of a prophecy – an EMPTY TOMB! A message which the Gospel writers were trying to report – the event consistent in all those verses which you quoted.
The bigger picture is that the OT rotates around the lives of the Israelites but pointing to the Messiah (Jesus Christ) in the NT. What satan does is to destroy the truth about Jesus Christ because he is the fulfillment of God’s plan – in anyway satan thinks he could do it e.g. twisting the meaning of the Scriptures, diverting people’s attention from God, etc. Satan started his work since before by trying to eliminate the descendants of Jesus, by trying to kill Jesus himself when he was young, satan also thought that he had killed Jesus at the cross but death has no power on Jesus and even immediately after people found an empty tomb (the verse that you quoted), satan continued with his work to deny Jesus’ resurrection and victory over death! “…The chief priest paid them a large sum of money, telling them: ‘You have to say that his disciples came at night and stole his body.'” Until today, satan is actively working to destroy this truth.
My point is that, we could easily miss the message if we are trying to look for something to prove a ‘truth’ that we have already formed in our minds which is not according to God’s Word.
Hi Pricilla/Rams brother,
Ok, so now the Bible does not contain God or God-inspired words anymore but accounts of events as interpreted by man (Mark, Luke, John, Matthew, etc) which understandably, can be contradicting.
Anyway, lets leave it as it is as and move on. Moreover, I have a plane to catch in 3 hours time to Singapore and then another one to India. So, I may not be viewing this site for 2-3 weeks as I’ll be ‘on the road’ most of the time.
Thank you for strengthening my belief in my own faith, Islam.
Signing Off….for now.
May the One and Only God Bless us and guide us to the true and straight path.
Dear brother, are we seeking our creator’s truth? or something that is called religion. May you have a safe flight brother… I Hope to see you back some time soon; until then, may we bless YHVH that we be blessed… in Y’Shua, Amein.
Hi Pricilla/Rams
I humbly offer:
Muslims are asked not to question the authority of the scriptures of the Christians. Sura Ankabut 29:46 “And dispute ye not with the people of the book but say: We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and that which came down to you.”
God-inspired words
1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Ghost teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
God-inspired words is the inspired words of God in the words of men. The truthfulness of Scriptures is not negated by the appearance or seeming discrepancies between one passage and another. No translation is or can be perfect and many discrepancies can be explained, but discrepancies do not destroy the wisdom of the inspired words of God.
2 Timothy 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
All power and glory to God the Most High
George. Pricilla and Rams,
I think the way most of the Christians turn and twist the facts of the Scriptures to protect Christianity faith really embarrassed me as a fellow Christian. Really, I think Seeking Truth is being nice and diplomatic to you guys in his postings.
George, in the Quran, God ask those (including Muslims) to question everything in the Quran and don’t just accept it blindly. So, why can’t the Muslims question the truthfulness of the origins or contradictions of some verses in the Bible, after all they are not questioning the Bible as a whole (which is what that Quran’s verse you quoted meant). If you are questioning the authenticity of a Rolex watch that is sold by the roadside, it does not mean you are questioning Rolex as a whole, you are just questioning that particular watch by the roadside.
‘I humbly offers..’ really, George ?? We know how arrogant you are and one just have to look at some of your responses to me to know that.
I know, I know, by now you all must be wondering why is this Christian so protective of the Muslims and Islam ? Well, I am not. As Rams pointed out correctly, its not about Religion, its about seeking our Creator’s truth. And if you are REALLY seeking the Creator’s Truth, then you will recognize the truth when you see it, even if it does not come from your own faith.
Religion don’t create the truth, but the truth create the religion. (this is also meant for SeekingTruth to ponder)
Shalom.
Correction to post – should be “…ancestors of Jesus…” not “…descendants of Jesus…”
Jim M,
If you had read my comments, they were regarding the claim that the WRITTEN Bible is corrupted and that people changed what was written in it. I claimed that the WRITTEN Bible was not corrupted or changed by the people throughout the ages, and that the corruption comes from the interpretation.
You basically say the same in your first sentence, so why do you think I am not being nice to Seeking Truth or, to anybody else for that matter, who have the same claims that the Bible was corrupted?
One more fact: the canon of the Bible was closed around 400 AD. So, there was no corruption of the Bible, at least, since c. 400 AD. But until then there was no Bible as a whole, so also before that there was nothing to corrupt because it did not exist.
I asked a legitimate question: Show me the verses that were corrupted and what they said BEFORE they were corrupted.
Instead I was given the answer of different reportings from different people re the resurrection of Jesus. Not corrupted verses, but different OBSERVATIONS by DIFFERENT people of the same incident.
I still did not receive an answer to my question.
Jim M,
Just to add: the Old Testament in Hebrew was closed from around 400 BC to c. 100 AD gradually. First the Torah (c. 400 BC), then they added the Prophets (c. 200 BC) and then the rest of the Writings (c. 100 AD). So, since those dates the Old Testament was not corrupted.
The canon of the Bible that was closed c. 400 AD was the TRANSLATED Old Testament in Greek/Latin together with the books in the New Testament that was used in the Church.
So, my question still stands if anyone has the answere.
Hi Jim_M et al,
Had a bit of a read and please allow me to give some thoughts… I think usage of some terminologies tend to be misleading and needs to be qualified (please note that I am not specifically pointing to anyone but making a general comment on what I have read here and personally experienced):
1) Christians >>> People call themselves Christians because they either use the Bible, visit a church, were born from a Christian family, associate with Christians, etc, etc. Others quote from the Bible, filter and don’t accept Biblical truth, twist the Scriptures or change the Scriptures to suit their culture, habits, character and whatever their logic tells them YET call themselves Christians. I am sad that many people call themselves Christians but their fruits are inconsistent with the Scriptures (esp. Galatians 5:16-26). No wonder why the Lord mentioned that not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven…
2) Contradictions >>> We could start looking into details of what different witnesses have observed but miss the bigger picture and message of what the witnesses are trying to report because we are already fixated on looking for a certain truth that we have already formed in our minds. Well on the other hand, discussion in a healthy environment can edify each individual.
We could also argue about so many things and tend to forget that the God revealed in the Scriptures is the Almighty who is MORE THAN ABLE to preserve His Word. Nothing is impossible with God indeed and nothing is hidden from Him. He knows everything about all things and everyone from eternity to eternity. God knows how satan will work to corrupt His Word. God knows how people treat, interpret and use His Word and amazingly, God already knew about this discussion thread. God also knows the responses that will come and how satan will start to work again. The fact is that satan cannot destroy God’s Word however twisting satan does to it – God’s Word will endure forever! (Isaiah 40:8; 1 Peter 1:25)
While God is MORE THAN ABLE to preserve His Word, the Almighty God is also MORE THAN ABLE to lead us and to guide our hearts and minds into all truth despite whatever deception satan will scheme. Again, nothing is impossible with God and IF we allow Him, He will lead us into all truth!
3) Truth >>> It could refer to truth about many different things e.g. about living, good works, etc… but allow me to highlight and expound on one statement which I believe we need to be very careful of: ‘And if you are REALLY seeking the Creator’s Truth, then you will recognize the truth when you see it, even if it does not come from your own faith.’
First, we need to realize that apart from God’s grace, our own human understanding may not be able to recognize false teachings from the truth. Even if we are REALLY seeking the truth but seeking it with our own thinking, we would tend to box our search according to what is convenient and suitable for us, the way we live and/or want to live. We wrestle not against flesh and blood and satan could clothe like a sheep – 10% lie may be difficult to notice. I would suggest that each one pray that God will lead us and reveal His truth to us before one starts to even search for it (if we haven’t found it yet). ‘Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him (God) and He will show you the right way.’ (Proverbs 3:5-6)
Secondly, whether people believe it or not, there is only one true God – He is the Almighty God who never changes. People change but God remains the same. He is the beginning and the end – the same yesterday, today and forever. Therefore, God’s message to man cannot be inconsistent IF He was the One who gave the message to people of different faiths. When looking at different faiths, we need to know how God is (or the gods are) revealed in different people’s faith? What is God’s (or are the gods’) message and commands for man? Unless this is consistent with God’s Word, I would be careful about acknowledging a truth outside one’s faith because one can only believe a single consistent truth.
For us who call ourselves Christians, it is important that we don’t just know and quote verses but must study and live them then will we be able to recognize error and false doctrine from the truth. We should be like the Bereans who always searched the Scriptures to find out whether the words given them were correct.
For those who are still seeking, sometimes we make it difficult for ourselves. God is real whether we recognize Him or not and God is just waiting for us to call on Him. ‘Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.’ (Matthew 7:7). ‘For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, ‘plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. Then you will call on me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you.’ declares the LORD. (Jeremiah 29:11-14). In fact, God is already knocking and all we have to do is open the door (Revelation 3:20). It would be much easier to ask Him to show us the truth rather than us trying to look for it on our own strength.
I pray that God will lead us to His truth!
Pricilla,
You commented “I asked a legitimate question: Show me the verses that were corrupted and what they said BEFORE they were corrupted.”
Of course you are not going to find any ! The verse on its own is not corrupted !
The statement made by a robber ‘I did not rob the bank as I was at home during that time’ is considered true until you have other statements by other witnesses that contradict his. On its own, the robber’s statement will always be considered true and ‘uncorrupted’.
If you are not open and still hold to what you believe in this matter, then no amount of contradicting verses shown or logical explanations will change your belief so, lets just drop this discussion.
Eugene,
Thank you for your inputs and yes, I think I understand what you are trying to say. As my earlier comment, we need to find the truth to find the religion and not the other way round of trying to tailored-fit the religion to the truth. Christians are fond of this and maybe Muslims too bcos that’s the natural instinct of Man, protect your turf at all costs.
As an example, lets take your earlier quote of “…the Bible conveys the same message consistently over ~1600years through 40 different people – many of these people don’t even know each other yet points to the same message!”
Yes but what is this same message, Eugene ? The empty tomb ? No, that message is the first Commandment – “You shall have no other gods before me”. This is a very clear and straightforward statement that there is only One God. You yourself said “..whether people believe it or not, there is only one true God – He is the Almighty God who never changes. People change but God remains the same. He is the beginning and the end – the same yesterday, today and forever. Therefore, God’s message to man cannot be inconsistent”. Yes, that’s the truth and all verses relating to this statement are all consistent and none are contradicting with one another.”
But what is the Christians understanding of God ? They came out with Trinity and try to ‘tailored-fit’ that concept in the first Commandment. Honestly, if God meant Jesus/Trinity to be THE main focal point of faith for mankind, wouldn’t He have make this His very first Commandment? Again I ask you are we trying to tailored-fit the religion into the truth ? Seek the truth and you will find the true Religion.
Hi Eugene,
As you may have seen, there have been some 480 comments up to now and most of what you wrote has been already covered, but it is great to have all those thoughts condensed and organized in one post to give us thought. And you said it really well.
I personally have learned something from you – something which I never thought about before:
“Therefore, God’s message to man CANNOT BE inconsistent IF HE was the One who gave the message to people of DIFFERENT faiths.”
It is so true and thank you for bringing it to (at least) my attention.
May God open our eyes so that we may see more clearly His Truth.
Jim M,
“Of course you are not going to find any ! The verse on its own is not corrupted !”
I rest my case.
Hi Jim_M,
Kindly allow me to breakdown the issues:
– Religion >>> I try to stay away from talking about religion because when we face our Creator, God will not ask us what our religion was on earth – it will just be God and me. On the other hand, our association will influence our faith and beliefs.
– Biblical message >>> I understand that this discussion thread is about the Ten Commandments but if we talk about the Biblical message, there is actually a bigger event that is happening behind what we perceive. Maybe there are questions that we need to ask: Why did God create man? Does God need man? What’s our purpose here? How about satan and the demons? Why did God allow Adam and Eve to fall into satan’s trap? If God is the Almighty, why not just eliminate the evil ones so that we could live peacefully on earth? …in this way, we won’t have issues with having other gods before the God Almighty. I doubt if there would even be a need for the Ten Commandments.
People could easily rush into specific verses but only if we travel over time from Creation through to the lives of the Israelites in the OT to the NT, it will paint a bigger picture for us. Reading the Bible in a rush to finish the whole book would have its own place but carefully looking at it: how God works and reveals Himself, how man reacted, all the situation around including the culture, etc. One will be painting a real vivid picture of the whole story and many before us have done this and summarised this but it is for each Christian to discover the richness of God’s Word. There are truths that stitch with each other and its really amazing! God is so much greater than what our mind can fathom! – this takes me to the next issue.
– Trinity >>> This topic is very delicate and I respect personal opinion but I would go back to my previous statement – God is so much greater than what our mind can fathom! If I start to explain to you who God is, it will fall short of who He really is. If I start to paint how God looks like, this will also fall short of who God is. …and similarly if I start to discuss Trinity. God’s thoughts are greater than our thoughts and His ways greater than our ways! He knows how many hairs I’ve got but even I don’t know that… The fact is that: our human understanding cannot grasp the fullness of God. So now we have a problem, how do we know God? We only would have an idea of who He is (His character and attributes) with how He has revealed Himself in the Scriptures. That’s why I mentioned before that when we look at other people’s faith, we need to know how God is revealed in their faith and what God’s commands are. People read the Scriptures with different purposes in mind and some already have formed truths that they box themselves within that truth – unfortunately, many pick a verse to prove their thinking. However we convince ourselves of who God is, will not change who God really is. The revelation of God in the Scriptures is not contained in a single verse but He revealed Himself from cover to cover of the Scriptures. Studying the Scriptures would give us an idea of how God revealed Himself to mankind.
I have to stop here for now… urgent matters ahead!
To God be the glory!
Apologies Pricilla… I do realize that I came in too late!
Eugene,
You didn’t!!!!
Eugene,
Sorry, I just re-read my previous comment, wondering why you would say something like that, and you probably misunderstood me.
We have been going on in this blog for sometime, and have sometimes side-tracked way off the original subject and it is great that you joined, irreargless of all the comments, and stirred us back on track.
I hope you weren’t sarcastic when you said “I do realize that I came in too late!” because, for me it was not too late – as I said, you taught me something I was not aware of.
Hi Pricilla,
Everything’s okay. Sometimes statements could be interpreted differently simply because we don’t know how it was exactly said or meant. No offense taken nor intended. This just shows how amazing God’s Word is, we already misinterpret each other after a few blogs but The Scriptures – 1600yrs and 40 individuals… it just strengthens my faith in the living God!
Pricilla,
As I said no amount of contradicting verses shown or logical explanations will change your belief so, lets just drop this discussion.
Eugene,
In general, or as you said from a ‘Big Picture’ perspective, I totally agreed with you. God is beyond comparison, As such, its not for Man to say what/who God is or how God organize Himself. How could Man can even compare God to anything or say God is this and God is also this when God is beyond the realm of human’s imaginations. How can we even say God has a son and God die for our sins ? As you correctly said ‘The fact is that: our human understanding cannot grasp the fullness of God’ , then don’t you think trinity contradicts this very statement (not to mention it already contradicted the first Commandment) ? Are these what Jesus teach us or what Paul teach us ?
You said ‘when we look at other people’s faith, we need to know how God is revealed in their faith and what God’s commands are’. Again you are right in this statement and you will also be right if you said God’s words and Commands are consistent to any other faiths too. The ‘hows’ might be different but the Message will be the same. In fact, if you study the teachings of Buddha, from a ‘Big Picture’ perspective there’s similarities between the Christians and the Buddhists. Somehow and somewhere, they too miss the ‘One and Only God’ message which Buddha himself advocates and instead they consider Buddha as God. And if you ever tell a Buddhist that God is One and He’s not Buddha and that his Books may have been distorted by Man, he too will swear that his Books are not corrupted and he too will tailored-fit Buddha into the ‘One God’ message.
Jim M
I only quoted you.
Pricilla, Eugene, Rams and all Christians:
I should caution you about Jim M. On May 11, 2012 at 11:53 pm He wrote: I am a Christian too and the verse I quoted from the Quran (which is only one I can remembered quoting from the Quran) is to show you the consistency of ‘One God’ in God message by all His Prophets.
God’s prophet’s message did not limit the greatness of God.
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given. And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Isaiah 40:3 The voice of him that cries in the wilderness, Prepare you the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Luke 3:4 As it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare you the way of the Lord, make his paths straight
Luke 1:31 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I comes, the thong of whose shoes I am not worthy to untie: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire:
The Word of God will become man (Word of God refering to John of course)
Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD has said to me, You are my Son; this day have I begotten you.
Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said to her, The Holy Ghost shall come on you, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow you: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of you shall be called the Son of God.
Do God’s prophet’s speak of the Holy Spirit?
Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is on me; because the LORD has anointed me to preach good tidings to the meek; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
Luke 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luke 4:21 And he began to say to them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
There are other verses about the Holy Spirit in the OT as well:
Numbers 27:18 And the LORD said to Moses, Take you Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay your hand on him;
Psalm 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; And renew a right spirit within me.
Psalm 51:11 Cast me not away from your presence; and take not your holy spirit from me.
Is a Trinity spoken of in the Bible? Yes – I Am that I Am, Lord God, the Holy Spirit.
Isaiah 48:16 Come you near to me, hear you this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, has sent me.
On May 10, 2012 at 7:59 am Jim M declared himself a messenger of God and his message is God is One, not in trinity.
Jim M purpose is to change your belief.
On May 18, 2012 at 7:43 am Jim M wrote As I said no amount of contradicting verses shown or logical explanations will change your belief so, lets just drop this discussion.
Logical explanations:
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He takes the wise in their own craftiness.
For those who still have doubt, are we ourselves one? Although we think of ourselves as one, do we not have a body and soul?
Matthew 10:28 And be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Do we even fully understand ourselves? Do I fully understand the nature of God. No, but I have faith.
God is infinitely greater than we are. The Bible teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible teaches that there is only one God.
The Bible warns: Romans 16:17 I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them.
Pray for Jim_M and other nonbelievers as I have by the grace of God.
I must say I did tell Jim_M the world is the devils which he disputed. To correct my error in my explanation, I now refer to 2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine to them.
We know who the god of this world is.
I wll also add what I was refering to when I wrote that: Colossians 3:2 Set your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are upon the earth.
May the name of God be blessed forever and ever, since wisdom and power are His alone.
Pricilla,
Yes you quoted me. But please don’t just quote a line. Read the whole comment and if you still don’t get what I’m trying to tell you, its ok we just drop this discussion.
George,
What is that you want to caution people about me ? For speaking my mind and seeking the truth to find the religion ? Everyone in this forum are speaking their minds here and I certainly do not expect everybody to agree with me. If I disagree with someone’s views (and vice-versa) I’ll try to explain why I disagreed. And if that someone still do not see the matter discussed from my perspective, that’s fine with me, we move on. I have not and will never ask anyone to be caution of someone who are speaking out for what they believe. Grow up, George.
“On May 10, 2012 at 7:59 am Jim M declared himself a messenger of God….”
God forbids ! I read this particular posting of mine over and over again and I still cannot find the part where I am supposed to have declared myself a messenger of God. I hope you can show me where I made this declaration so that I ask God for His forgiveness for declaring myself His messenger which definitely I’m not.
“…. The Bible teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible teaches that there is only one God. “
Ok, here’s where I don’t understand. Please explain to me from what you understand of this statement.
Jim M,
I really waited for you to tell me to quote the rest of your comment, so here goes:
“The statement made … is considered true until you have other statements by other witnesses that contradict his.”
So, if I need to see things differently than I do, then let the other witnesses SHOW me the contradictions. That is ALL I asked from the beginning and NOBODY is showing me.
If somebody made a legitimate claim of corruption WITH facts of what was corrutpted and how it looked before the corruption that would give ALL of us a reason to study the issue again.
It has nothing to do with me not wanting to see things – it’s just that nobody SHOWED me anything I can check for myself.
So, until YOU, or anyone else shows me the CORRUPTIONS and what they said before that, don’t tell me “If you are not open and still hold to what you believe in this matter, then no amount of contradicting verses shown or logical explanations will change your belief” but give me YOUR LOGIGCAL explanation if you have one so we can check it out.
Thanks George!
I concur that I also have noticed something wrong. In fact, while reading through the posts, I had to stop and pray for individuals here. We had a Bible Study last night at our place (interestingly about the 10 Commandments which we have scheduled since several weeks ago) and have shown this blog to our group who recognized similar things. Satan is working hard but our God already know his next move before he has even thought about it. A great God we have!
Thanks George!
I concur that I also have noticed something wrong. In fact, while reading through the posts yesterday, I had to stop and pray for individuals here. We had a Bible Study last night at our place (interestingly about the 10 Commandments which we have scheduled since several weeks ago) and have shown this blog to our group who recognized similar things. Satan is working hard but our God already know his next move before he has even thought about it. A great God we have!
To all,
Sometimes warnings like “…to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them” can also be like a 2-edged sword. While it warn Christians from being deceived, it can also prevent the Christians from knowing the real truth.
Without trying to be sarcastic, I’ll ask you that instead of offering prayers for others who you feel contradict your beliefs, you should pray for yourself that God (the One who Jesus himself pray to) show you the path to the truth.
I know when I am not wanted here, so I will leave you, my Christian brothers and sisters, in your own world. My humble apologies if I have offended anyone here in all my postings here as that’s not my main intention.
Finally, below are quotations from the Bible and hope you will see the truth in these verses and not trying to tailored-fit your beliefs into these verses. (Eugene, you can show these to your Church group too and hopefully they too see the truth)
“And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.” Samuels 15:22
Obeying God is better than sacrifice whether this sacrifice is of objects, animals, or humans, or any other type. What God likes is for us to heed and obey Him, and if that is what God likes then it is not of Him to come later and change His mind and His ways.
“The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him” Ezekiel 18:20
Clearly the soul that sins shall die. Clearly, no one shall bear the iniquity (sins) of others. So Jesus cannot bear the sins of others either. If one is righteous then it shall be upon him, and if one commits a sin then it shall be upon him, and not on Jesus.
“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.” Matthew 5:17
Jesus clearly states that he was not sent to abolish the laws, the laws of which had already existed.
“For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 5:18-19
Jesus here asserts that not even as much as a dot shall pass from the law. Every thing is kept the way it was. This is why the previous laws cannot be relaxed or discarded, and those who willfully change these laws “he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.”
Jim_M,
I haven’t written in a while, but since you are leaving, and after reading your posts, I’d like to say something regarding your last comments:
As you said, the two-edged sword can go either way, and so could most of the Bible – but a person cannot second-guess themselves all the time and wonder what it means. That is NOT faith. One has to choose either way. You cannot attack people’s beliefs while you, yourself, don’t know what to believe. You have to back up your beliefs with facts.
As for Jesus “bearing the sins of others”: That is what Christianity is all about and if you don’t believe that, than of course you are NOT a Christian. You are something else (I don’t know what), but you are not a Christian. Most of the Christians know their faith and know where they stand in their faith, while you are second-guessing every verse – and that does not give you strong stand when you discuss the Christian issues.
You say: “Jesus clearly states that he was not sent to abolish the laws, the laws of which had already existed.” And He didn’t, because those laws are out there to teach us what sin is. Without the Law, we would not know what sin is.
But where are the laws for sacrificial animals that were supposed to “cover” the sins of sinners? Since Jesus went to the cross, and that generation which was living at the time, died (generation = 40 years. The destruction of Temple happened in 70 AD, i.e. 40 years after Jesus went to the cross – just like Israel walked the desert for 40 years until THAT generation died – only then were they allowed into the Promised Land) – so, since Jesus died and until today, there have been no animal sacrifices – EVEN THOUGH those sacrifice laws still stand in the Bible. JESUS has been, and will continue to be, our SACRIFICIAL LAMB for our sins. The Lamb that takes away the sins of the world. That is what Christianity is all about and you cannot change it. Anything else is NOT Christianity.
As for 1 Samuel 15:22: You need to read the whole chapter in order to see why Samuel said what he did, because sacrificing animals for the covering of sin continued until Jesus went to the cross.
Habakkuk 2:4 “…but the righteous shall LIVE BY HIS FAITH”.
Hope you will find the Way, the Truth and Life.
Praise the Lord. You’re welcome Eugene.
To all: I would like to add that if you believe the Bible is God’s inspired word, you should not just spread the gospel but do what the Holy Bible tells us to do. I do believe God’s inspired word and I am willing to what it says. I took no pleasure in the things I said to Jim M.
Satan is very cunning and he will let you believe in the Holy Bible as long as you do not do what is tells you to do even in a small way. That’s all he needs to begin his deception. He is willing to work on you for years. His goals is for you to die in your sins. I speak from first hand experience.
Once you are in the snare of the devil, it is very difficult to escape. My first step was quiting a high paying job because I recognized evil in my life. It took 9 years before I was able to return to God’s fold. It was a very difficult journey. Do no be surprised Jim M decided to leave.
I did pray for Jim M and in all truth I tell you I felt the sorrow of Jesus Christ. I was almost brought to tears the first time I prayed for him. I urge all Christains to pray for Jim M. Hopefully one day Jim M will return telling us what Jesus Christ did for him. Everything is possible for God. God loves Jim M and we should show our love for Jim M by praying for him.
John 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.
Praise the Lord God who made the heavens, the earth and the sea and all things in them.
We do need to pray for Jim_M and everyone of us because satan is doing double time in trying to lure everyone away from the truth.
Hi all,
I’m just prompted to highlight satan’s tricks to prevent the Good News from spreading and to lure people away from the truth:
– Attack on credibility >>> Unfortunately, satan takes advantage of our human nature to pursue his intentions…
(1) Credibility of God’s Words: We have seen the attack very clearly and even though we are not told – after all these, satan could still whisper to cause us to doubt. The usual problem is that we tend to leave out who God is and what God can do. To again emphasize, our God is so much greater than what man and satan can do to corrupt His Word and God WILL guide His people to His truth. We know that all Scripture is God-breathed… – inspired by God.
(2) Credibility of Christians: This was so obvious in the postings in order to lure people into disbelief on those who really study God’s Word so that people start to believe another truth which is inconsistent with the Scriptures. The only logical conclusion for people who question the basic foundations of Christianity is that they themselves are non-Christians. They claim to be Christians yet are not as Lydia and George pointed out their observations which we need to beware.
– 10% error >>>
Something appears to be truthful but infused with a small error. These statements were dangerous: (1) ‘And if you are REALLY seeking the Creator’s Truth, then you will recognize the truth when you see it, even if it does not come from your own faith’. and (2)‘…you will also be right if you said God’s words and Commands are consistent to any other faiths too. The ‘hows’ might be different but the Message will be the same.’
These statements suggest that Christians should start looking for truth outside of the Scriptures. Many other faiths do not preach nor even acknowledge Jesus Christ’s death and resurrection. No Bible-believing Christian will ever suggest to a fellow Christian to look for truth in another faith!
To God be the glory!
Hi Pricilla
To answer your question about Bible verses, I had to do some research. I no longer think it is just the interpretation of man that you spoke of. My learning continues.
In the U.S., the are 38,000 Christian denominations so Christianity is being divided so we do not all use the same bible. In fact since about 1980 there has been a proliferation of bibles.
I found this observation: “modern Bible versions demote the Lord Jesus Christ and promote fallen man”
A few of the examples given:
International Standard Version (©2008)
Luke 13:8
But the gardener replied, ‘Sir, leave it alone for one more year, until I dig around it and fertilize it.
American King James Version
And he answering said to him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
Jesus is demoted from Lord to sir.
New International Version (©1984)
John 8:35
Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever.
And the servant stays not in the house for ever: but the Son stays ever.
Jesus is not the Son but merely a son
Acts 17:22-23
International Standard Version (©2008)
So Paul stood up in front of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I see that you are very religious in every way.
For as I was walking around and looking closely at the objects you worship, I even found an altar with this written on it: ‘To an unknown god.’ So I am telling you about the unknown object you worship.
American King James Version
Then Paul stood in the middle of Mars’ hill, and said, You men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are too superstitious.
For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore you ignorantly worship, him declare I to you.
They know not who they worship but they are “religious in every way”. It could be Satan for all they know.
Satan and ungodly men that serve the beast are trying to hide the truth that Jesus Christ is God from people who will do the will of God the Father and therefore will understand the parables. Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Matthew 13:11 He answered and said to them, Because it is given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
When we pray, do we ask what we can do for God or just what He can for us. I include myself because I do not always ask what I can do for God.
We must do what an uncorrputed Bible says to do. For example:
Matthew 6:14 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you
Pricilla, God did give me a message for you (without any words). I was directed to your comment about the Sabbath being a day of rest and the Bible does not say to worship on that day. The commandment does say to keep it holy. 1 John 3:22 And whatever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
I go to church on the Sabbath to be pleasing in Gods sight. Praise the Lord.
I am no better than you or anyone else for that matter – Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
May God bless and keep you.
Heal me, O Lord, and I will be healed; save me and I will be saved, for you are the one I praise
Hi George,
Luke 13:8 is a parable and Jesus is giving a story, so “Sir” or “Lord” gives the employer the honor of somebody on a higher level than the gardener. (Actually, it should be a small “L” because the gardener was in employ of the man who had the vineyard, and the employees in KJV period called their employers “lord”.) This is a story, so either “sir” or “lord” would be appropriate.
John 8:35 is also an example – so if the word Son should be in capital letter, then the word Slave should be also – so who would be a Slave then?
I agree that in these parables Jesus is talking about Himself, but they are stories, so the people in the parables are EXAMPLES and “sir”, “lord”, “son” is not grammatically incorrect if they are in small letters, or if “lord” is used instead of “sir” because of that day’s social rules. Today, we don’t use “lord” to give someone respect, but we use “sir”, so “sir” (in a story) would be a correct translation in our day.
Acts 17:22–23 The inscription could have meant worshipping of evil god, but in both versions – whether they were “religious” or “superstitious” – Paul used the opportunity for preaching to them the Gospel, and praise be to God for that! (Actually, all their gods were born out of “superstition” and THEN they became a part of their “religion”.)
As far as your other references: “Matthew 13:10 and Matthew 13:11
Even though it was given to the disciples to understand the parables, they did not, because on several occasions Jesus had to explain the parables to them – so I still don’t understand Matt. 13:11.
As for the Sabbath (you say “The commandment does say to keep it holy”): I re-checked and did not see where it says so. In KJV (Ex. 20:11) it says “…wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.” GOD MADE the day HOLY – it does not say that we should keep it holy – though we should keep EVERY DAY holy. It would be very sad for our situation if we kept only ONE day of the week holy.
It is written that the Sabbath should be a day of REST from all work, for everyone – even the animals (how would animals keep it holy exactly?). Also, the commandment does not say that it is a special day of worship. So, we can REST and keep it HOLY (as we should ALL other days) without going to church on that day. We can worship God in meetings on any given day, but the commandment talks about it being a day of REST.
Maybe it says somewhere else that we should keep the Sabbath holy – but it does not say so in the STONE COMMANDMENTS.
If anyone believes they should go to meetings on Sabbath, let them do so. If others think they can meet on other days, that’s fine, too. I live in a country where some people have a transportation problem on the day when everything is closed down, and they can’t make it to meetings on that day – so they go on other days. Also, “churches” have to have special permits for meetings, so sometimes one facility that does have the permit, serves different group meetings on different days, even Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. Sometimes, even 2 groups in one day. But, all of them keep the Sabbath REST.
Thank you for sharing with me. God bless and keep you.
Hi Pricilla
In Matthew 13:11 Jesus Christ had to explain the parables to them because He was still with them and they had not received the Holy Spirit.
John 15:20 Remember the word that I said to you, The servant is not greater than his Lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
Matthew 26:35 Peter said to him, Though I should die with you, yet will I not deny you. Likewise also said all the disciples.
Jesus Christ was to die alone for our sins and rise from the dead. If they had received the Holy Spirt, they would not have been afraid as they were when Jesus was arrested. Luke 22:34 And he said, I tell you, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that you shall thrice deny that you know me.
John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, Receive you the Holy Ghost:
After they had received the Holy Spirit, I believe all but John did die for the Lord.
The reason for the parables is confirmed in:
2 Corinthians 4:3
(3) But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, (4) whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.
I have a belief you live in מְדִינַת יִשְׂרָאֵלישראל. I live in sin city, Las Vegas although I try not to sin (I do not deny I am a sinner). I see the glitter of this world everyday.
May God bless you and everyone you care for.
Let every thing that has breath praise the LORD. Alleluia!
Hi George,
Yes, I live in מְדִינַת יִשְׂרָאֵל – but even there sin is rampant, as it is in the whole world. We should watch ourselves so we don’t start compromising our faith. We should take the advice given in Psalm 1:1-2 no matter where we live:
“Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.”
Thanks for your explanation of Matthew 13:11.
Let every thing that has breath praise the LORD. Alleluia!
AMEN!!!
Hi Pricilla,
I believe the verse I quote is from the Bible you are using. I checked it with the Psalm 1:1-2 verbage you quoted – thank you for the verse.
Leviticus 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
I do not know if attending a convocation is possible for you. If this is in your Bible, I wanted you to know the truth. If not forgive me, I do not mean to challenge your belief because we both love, worship and serve the same God.
God bless you
Praise ye the LORD. Praise, O ye servants of the LORD, praise the name of the LORD.
Hi George,
There is nothing to forgive. We are discussing and giving our views and understanding on this blog.
I know about Leviticus 23. And I compared it with the 10 Commandments, where they appear in Exodus 20:3-17 and Deuteronomy 5:6-21.
I still claim that in the STONE 10 Commandments, it says nothing about meetings on Sabbath. It is a general commandment for REST – and God made it holy just for that purpose, so that our bodies can rest from ALL work. REST on Sabbath is from the Creation in Genesis – for the whole humanity and everything that has breath in them (like WORKING animals which also need rest).
Also, let’s not get confused. In OT days they did not have SYNAGOGUES or meeting places in their cities. Children of Israel were allowed to worship ONLY where God would put His Name, i.e. wherever the Tabernacle was (until it got its permanent home in the Temple) – see whole chapter Deut. 12.
They had the TEMPLE in Jerusalem and the HIGH PLACES in other places when they worshipped other gods. So, they did not meet in groups as they do now, or as the church does now. And because of the distances, they could not have gone every Sabbath to Jerusalem – they went only on the 3 main holy festivals.
Synagogues came into existence when the Jews were in the Babylonian exile so they could somehow stay together as a people and not get assimilated (not like the 10 Northern tribes). When they returned to Israel, they continued with the synagogue meetings – even though both in the exile and when they returned to Israel, the “synagogues” were not according to God’s commands.
About Leviticus 23:1-2 “And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying, SPEAK UNTO THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL, and say unto them, concerning the FEASTS of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.”
After that, the whole chapter talks about the Sabbath and the Feasts that should have a holy convocation.
1. For Sabbath’s convocation you have to compare Lev. 23-3 and Numbers 28:9-10. Obviously they could not make it to the Temple each Sabbath and they could not sacrifice anywhere else BUT at the Temple. So, in my understanding, this “convocation” on Sabbath would be only for the JEWS who did succeed in making it on any given Sabbath to the Temple FOR THE PURPOSE OF SACRIFICING. Also, the laws for sacrificing on Sabbath were made for the Sabbath CONVOCATION – NO SACRIFICE, NO CONVOCATION ON SABBATH.
In the STONE commandment you have nothing on sacrificing on Sabbath, as you don’t have anything on “convocation” on Sabbath – only REST from ALL work.
2. The second thing is that, as you see in Lev. 23:2, God is giving these commands for the Sabbath and other feasts to the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL, SPECIFICALLY (in addition to the STONE Sabbath commandment), as they also demand animal sacrifice. Otherwise, why aren’t non-Jews keeping the “CONVOCATIONS” on the Jewish Passover, Feast of the Weeks and Feast of the Tabernacles – as is demanded (with all the sacrficies) in this chapter?
On the other hand, the children of Israel DID KEEP the Sabbath holy (and rested) in their homes, with their families and maybe relatives – and probably did read the Bible together or discussed passages, as it says in Deuteronomy 11:18-20 (KJV): “Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes. And YE SHALL TEACH THEM TO YOUR CHILDREN, speaking of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.”
So, to sum it up, it is my PERSONAL understanding that the STONE Sabbath commandment is for REST and not “convocation” – and the world can meet to worship God on any given day of the week as long as we are fully convinced in our own mind that what we are doing is for the Lord.
Romans 14:4-6: “Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand. One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. WHOEVER REGARDS ONE DAY AS SPECIAL DOES SO TO THE LORD…”
This is ONLY my view and understanding on the Sabbath Rest and Sabbath meetings after I have studied it extensively (especially since my best friend became a Seventh Day Adventist and had me convinced for a while that they are on the right track. Only because they made SUCH A BIG DEAL of the Sabbath commandment [WORSHIP-WISE] – and pushed aside all the other commandments – I got a bit suspicious and started studying the subject in depth, and I reached the above conclusions only after extensive in-depth study of the Sabbath laws.)
May God bless you richly.
Hi Pricilla,
It is good that we can discuss. With regard to Romans 14:4-6, Romans 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive you, but not to doubtful disputations. If your faith was weak, I would not have discussed this with you at all. I am not here to convert or judge you.
I judge or condemn no one: Romans 14:4 Who are you that judge another man’s servant? to his own master he stands or falls. Yes, he shall be held up: for God is able to make him stand. James 4:12 One only is the lawgiver and judge, even he who is able to save and to destroy: but who art thou that judgest thy neighbor? – Romans 3:23 For all fall short to the glory of God
and
Matthew 5:19 Whoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
I am not a Seventh Day Adventist nor do I believe what they teach. I do not know which is the greatest or least of the 10 commandments nor do I care for none of them are the greatest commandment of all. I will keep all of God’s commandments the best I can with the grace given to me. John 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.
The greatest commandment is Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: Deuteronomy 6:5 And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
This is what Christ taught as well: Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: Mark 12:30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength: this is the first commandment.
Deuteronomy 6:4 Deuteronomy 6:5 was not on the STONE 10 Commandments but it is the greatest commandment of all and it was for Israel. Now it is for all and it addresses all 10 commandments and His other teachings for all must love God more than themselves and obey His words. Romans 14:8
In ACTS, the Apostles wrote about keeping the Sabbath 85 times (I looked it up). Jesus Christ sent them to teach. John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be to you: as my Father has sent me, even so send I you.
Jesus Christ said Mark 3:4 “And he said to them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.” Jesus was teaching the meaning of the Sabbath is much more than a day of rest just as He taught the seventh commandment was more in Matthew 5:28 But I say to you, That whoever looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Jesus Christ is the Lord of the sabbath. Matthew 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day. Mark 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath. Luke 6:5 And he said to them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me. My own church teaches not to keep the Sabbath but Sunday. I will keep the Lord of the Sabbath day. Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
You are right – you do not have to have a convocation for everything is possible for God. Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the middle of them.
Do not let your experience with the Seventh Day Adventist demish your understanding God’s commandments or what God wants from you. Psalms 112:1 Praise the LORD! Blessed is the man who fears the LORD, Who delights greatly in His commandments. Luke 11:28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.
May God be gracious to you and bless you
Praise our Lord our God who is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God!
Hi George,
I said previously that we are here to exchange ideas and views.
As you have probably read in my previous comment, I explained that the conclusions were my PERSONAL conclusions, which I believe with all my heart are right conclusions.
Matthew 5:19 I am not trying to “teach” or convince anyone else to think as I do. I respect the conclusions others have come to and are living those conclusions by THEIR FAITH.
Maybe down the road, the Holy Spirit will show me differently – but for now this is what I see regarding the subject of the Sabbath commandment. (Mark 3:4 Of course I think you should do good and help others in need on Sabbath – but that is not the kind “work” that should not be done which is meant in the commandment).
To God be all the glory!!
Hi George!
Further to my above comment:
Romans 14
5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them SHOULD BE FULLY CONVINCED IN THEIR OWN MIND.
6 Whoever regards one day as special, DOES SO TO THE LORD (in another translation: OBSERVES IT IN HONOR OF THE LORD).
17 For the KINGDOM OF GOD IS…of RIGHTEOUSNESS, PEACE AND JOY IN THE HOLY SPIRIT,
18 because ANYONE WHO SERVES CHRIST IN THIS WAY IS PLEASING TO GOD AND RECEIVES HUMAN APPROVAL.
19 LET US therefore MAKE EVERY EFFORT TO DO WHAT LEADS TO PEACE and to mutual edification.
22 So WHATEVER YOU BELIEVE ABOUT THESE THINGS (in other translations: THE FAITH THAT YOU HAVE) KEEP BETWEEN YOURSELF AND GOD. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves.
23 …EVERYTHING THAT DOES NOT COME FROM FAITH IS SIN.
My emphasis is on the 5th and 23rd verse.
This is my FINAL comment on the subject unless, in the future, I am convicted otherwise by the Holy Spirit.
PEACE! SHALOM!
Romans 14:1 You are weak in spirit and I will respect your wish. In the future I suggest instead of research you trust God.
George,
What have I done to YOU that you judge and attack me? We were only exchanging views and ideas, remember?
You hold on to your view – I have nothing against that nor have I told you that you were wrong or that you have to believe what I believe. I just SHARED with you my views. So you don’t agree with me. Fine. But who are you to judge me and my spirit?
The Bible – God’s Word – IS my guide and whatever I believe comes from God’s Word. I think that would mean that I “trust God” – as you advised me.
Matthew 7:1-2
Luke 6:37
1 Corinthians 4:3-4
Wishing you all the best.
Pricilla
I only ask you to seek the truth from God. For
You do teach it:
Pricilla says:
April 27, 2012 at 6:55 am
1. commandment” – your words).
I studied some more today and I came upon these verses, which do make me think it was especially for the Jews: Ex. 31:16-17 The ISRAELITES are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting COVENANT. It will be a SIGN between ME (God) and the ISRAELITES for ever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he RESTED and was REFRESHED.
I don’t mind adopting a day of REST so that I can be REFRESHED also for the week to come – and that goes for believers in God and also non-believers. We physically NEED the rest once a week so we can replenish our strength and go back into the world the following week.
On the other hand, Chrisitians who “keep” the Sabbath would make us believe that it should be a SPECIAL day of WORSHIP – which it was not meant to be – not for non-Jews, anyway.
And you spread teachings that are not in the Bible:
Pricilla says:
April 27, 2012 at 12:04 am
Peter,
I would think that the FIRST commandment is the MOST IMPORTANT commandment, since God wrote it first also.
Do you believe this is pleasing to God?
I am not judging you for your own words speak the truth:
Pricilla says:
May 14, 2012 at 10:23 am
… And since it is a parable, I just don’t know what he meant by it.
You know what the Bible says about those who do not understand the parables don’t you?
What you said is not exchanging views and ideas. You closed the door on the discussion. This is my FINAL comment on the subject unless, in the future, I am convicted otherwise by the Holy Spirit.
I was only respecting your wishes.
You ask:
But who are you to judge me and my spirit? – How have I judged you by sharing Gods word with you? Romans 14:1 is God’s inspired words if you believe what you say about the Bible. They are not my words or opinion just as what the Bible says about the parables is not my words or opinion. And they are to be read with Romans 14:4-6 that you quoted.
God loves you Pricilla. You do not have to believe anything I am telling you. I only ask you say these prayers as I do for they are based on the Bible’s teachings:
Daily
In Jesus Christ name, I ask that Jesus Christ guide me to the God the Father for He is the way the life and the truth and there is no other way to the God Father except through him. Please give me the grace and the understanding to do God the Father’s will. Matthew 7:21
On the Sabbath and whenever God moves you too:
‘O God, be merciful to me, the sinner that I am (Luke 18:13)
I also pray the way Jesus taught us how to pray many times a day. Matthew 6:9
Lydia rebuked Jim_M after she read God’s word that I shared and she saw the truth which is God’s word. I am not boasting of myself for I have done nothing for I only boast of the Lord.
I am here to serve you Pricilla and others like Eugene and Lydia by sharing the truth of God’s word.
After reading what wrote, I realize I misspoke – I did not mean to say weak in spirit, but in faith as the Bible says.
I am sorry.
Yes but what is this same message, Eugene ? The empty tomb ? No, that message is the first Commandment – “You shall have no other gods before me”.
No, Jim, that is NOT the single prevailing message of the Bible. The single prevailing message of the Bible is that God is willing to forgive you of your trespasses against him (called sin in the Bible) and bring you home to a perfect relationship with Him. That is why Jesus went to the cross to repair our relationship to Himself, both God the Father and Himself. THAT is the prevailing message of the Bible.
“George, in the Quran, God ask those (including Muslims) to question everything in the Quran…And if you are REALLY seeking the Creator’s Truth, then you will recognize the truth when you see it, even if it does not come from your own faith.”
The problem with that, Jim, is that is NOT “the truth” or “a truth”. The Quran doesn’t have the truth.
Take heart Pricilla, I am not saying that you are doomed. If you believe I have sinned against you, please forgive me for your own sake and pray for me. Matthew 6:14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
(Proverbs 2:1-5) My son, if you receive my words
and treasure up my commandments with you,
making your ear attentive to wisdom
and inclining your heart to understanding;
yes, if you call out for insight
and raise your voice for understanding,
if you seek it like silver
and search for it as for hidden treasures,
then you will understand the fear of the Lord
and find the knowledge of God.
I do ask for insight and raise my voice for understanding.
I want to help you in any way I can to serve you because Jesus Christ served for both of us but only God can save us. If you say we are finished then we are finished. I will not be a stumbling block if you believe you are serving God as He intends you to. Just be certain of what you teach for some will read your words and believe what you say even if you say it is your opinion.
As a rhetorical question, I will ask if you believe God allows men to teach falsely by interpretation, why do you do believe God will not allow these interpretations to be written? God gave men free will to do as they please (resist the will of God) and there are those who will not seek it from God like silver. Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
After my last message to you, I myself was reminded I do not always working out my own salvation with fear and trembling. Philippians 2:12
I will never judge you Pricilla because I do not want to be judged.
Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that you be not judged. Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Peace be with you
Seek it like silver Pricilla
All glory to God, who is able, through his mighty power at work within us, to accomplish infinitely more than we might ask or
I know enough about Lydia.
“As for Jesus “bearing the sins of others”: That is what Christianity is all about and if you don’t believe that, than of course you are NOT a Christian.”
I know of you. Your teachings are not truthful.
James 3:1 My brothers, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
And now I will go in peace for others also know of you and you cannot say you have not been told the truth on judgment day.
George,
I don’t think Pricilla is “teaching” anybody because she is not testing anyone on her views after giving them.
She SHARED her views and, from what I saw, she also backed them up with references – and you can agree or disagree with her – or anybody else. That’s your PREROGATIVE.
She, and maybe others, don’t agree with YOU on some things, but she and others didn’t call you a liar as you have called Pricilla (“Your teachings are NOT TRUTHFUL.” In my dictionary, “not truthful” means “lies”.)
Not agreeing with somebody, does not make that somebody a liar.
Hi Lydia
It is good of you to defend your friend.
Who else might believe Pricilla because of what she thinks and not know the truth because they do not know their Bible regardless of testing? If anyone believes what she writes it is teaching whether or not she believes she is teaching or not. Do parents test their children about Santa Claus? Do they believe until the truth is made known? I will point out:
Pricilla wrote:
I would think that the FIRST commandment is the MOST IMPORTANT commandment, since God wrote it first also.
Mark wrote:
Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: Mark 12:30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength: this is the first commandment.
If anyone believes the 1st commandment is the most important because they agree with her that it was written first, she has taught. That is also what Jim_M taught with another purpose in mind. What if that lead to someone believing Jim_M because Jim_M and Pricilla agreed the first command was the most important and now they believe there is no trinity?
I did not mean to call her a liar, but to warn others. You are right of course, but who is she calling a liar with her “I think” even if that is not what she meant? That is why James 3:1 is in the Bible. I stand by what I said.
Pricilla has read the Bible 10 times and I have read it once and the gospel twice because August 2011 is when God called me back to the fold. Do you think I know all of the verses I quote? If you gave me a written test on the Bible about verses, I would fail.
I hope you can see the truth in this.
God bless you Lydia
All glory be to God our Father in Heaven
For George,
You seem to be warning others a lot of other people who do not think as you do. Interesting…
As for Pricilla “teaching” others: she has mentioned many times that she is only sharing her views. Whoever wants to take her up on it, it is their problem. Though, all the people on this blog seem to know to check out what is shared, and I don’t think anyone would blindly accept anyone else’s ideas without checking them first. So, I’d say that she is NOT teaching anyone.
I see you are coming back to what Pricilla said regarding the 1st commandment. I had to check it out. You should quote others in context and not out of context. If you read what Peter said, you would have understood her answer.
You should maybe read the Bible a few times more, before you pass judgement on others and before you start warning people of those that do not think like you.
Wow… unbelievable.
I need not tell you but I will, you are spiritually and scripturally cool in my book Pricilla… in time I have grown to respect your knowledge and faith a great deal, continued blessings dear Sister… I am sorry you had to contend with that.
For Steve and Rams
Ok, assuming the reader knows the gospel of Mark and the most important commandment taught by Jesus, the first commandment of Thou shalt have no other gods before me is not among the sixty-seven occurrences of the word abomination in the Bible. Murder and graven images is an abomination to God if you did not know. So what is the reasoning for teaching the 1st commandment is the most important? Even in context, it is not true.
If you give a basis for someone to form an opinion, which she clearly does, you are teaching.
I stand by what I said.
I am unsubscribing to this thread because little regard is given to what is actually in the Bible.
To All:
It has been revealed to me that I called God a liar when I said:
“I do not know which is the greatest or least of the 10 commandments nor do I care for none of them are the greatest commandment of all.”
Who am I to tell God and you that I do not place the same importance on each of His commandments as He does?
I confess my sin to the whole world. I retract this statement and ask for forgivness and mercy from God.
Also to everyone, I sinned against you when I said “because little regard is given to what is actually in the Bible.” Please forgeive me so you will be forgiven. I know you place as much importance on the Bible as I do.
I stand by what I am saying.
Satan and his devils are crafty as you can see. Be careful. Without God we will all be lost. Please ask God to reveal your sins so you can confess them and ask for forgivenss as I do. If you believe, He will.
To everyone who believes Jesus Christ is God, take heart. You have the Holy Spirit within you.
Ephesians 1:13-14 In whom you also trusted, after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that you believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God’s own possession, unto the praise. of his glory. John 7:38 John 7:39
Trust God and His Word – Seek His Word Like Silver
I leave you in peace
In John 20 15 the Bible says Sunday Morning Mary went looking for Jesus and saw a man he taught to be a Gardener so she went to ask him if he had seen Jesus. A good place to look for Jesus on Sunday Mornings the first day of the week is in the Garden not CHURCH.
A.S.
Gold was and is primarly a monatry and wealth indicator,as stone is rock that could not be totaly destroid.platinum is not found in the desert of sinie,The commandments where
writern by the finger of GOD.
Noel,
If you seek Jesus,you will find him anywear,if you truly do believ him to be the way to GOD.
May GOD bless all of You who seek him.
Hello Teresa,
A great question, let me give it a try, others may have a different take on this so I hope they share their understanding as well:
In no. 1 YHVH says we shall not have no other god’s before him, note how that takes no mention to IMAGES as seen in no.2. This tells me YHVH is talking about two distinct things, 1) belief in Him without physically seeing, versus 2) belief in Him through seeing an Image, something that in essence leads to everything but Him for man has never seen Him. In no 1 he tells us to believe in Faith and in no. 2 He warns us not to test that faith. Remember, man has and cannot ever see Him physically. Let me expand:
In those days it was easier for many to believe in no1 for then He had shown His power… when the commandments where handed to Israel they had actually seen His power but eventually that would change and YHVH knew that, and the reason for the second commandment. If and when they would not follow this commandment they failed, for in making an image of an unseen God surely meant making a false god… YHVH knew this too for in time that power would not be manifested anymore… (in my opinion that faith could be strengthened). In other words, if making IMAGES man’s perception of believing blindly (having Faith) would then be damaged.
I see these as two different things for His reality is what it is and man’s perception of that reality is what it is. In no 1 He says not to have other god’s before Him and no2: He warns us to not make IMAGES of anything including anything in Heaven before Him. Fact is many back then and through to modernity still look for a physical representation of Him. I think this is why these two are separate.
His reality was (believable) to many (i.e. Moshe’s Israel) but what is clear in scripture is that when Israel began to not listen to the second commandment, their faith in the the Creator would wean and even disappear (archeology has proven that many images were in fact associated with the belief in YHVH) that eventually faith in the unseen Creator would be replaced by man’s perception of that Creator (a false belief)… So number one tells me YHVH is speaking of faith in Him versus no2 which is warning me to not define Him by trying to create an image of Him. He tells us no man will or ever has seen Him.
In the past present and future tense of the word, the Hebrew Tetragrammaton YHVH (our universal Creator) means several things that really mean one thing… (I was) ( Iam) and (I will be), and can generally can be understood as (I am He who has and will do as I say) in other words “He Is What He Has and Will Say. (The Word)” In scripture He teaches us that everything He said He would do He did and therefore we can believe that what He says he will do… that His Word is Truth. Again, in no.1 one we are called to believe in His Truth sight unseen, where in no2 we are called not to make up that truth with our truth.
The concept of false god’s are associated with IMAGES of falseness and not truthfulness (they are called non-living or false god’s in scripture)… men / women that required to see God that took to making Images proved to eventually begin believing in that physical manifestation (that of falseness i.e.: Adma/Eve) and not His Spiritual manifestation – (True belief not made up belief). The days of Noah and beyond a good example of us not paying head to the second commandment, believing in the physical though we believed in the non-physical?… in short we would put into question our Creator over us creating false god’s…. Again, YHVH calls man to be faithful in Him (without seeing), and 2) YHVH calls man to not fall to our rendition of Him, the physical, as in the worthless or non living images that lead to nothing more than the destruction of the temple (so too the temple in Jerusalem), see the correlation?.
In scripture we see many accounts of people that followed the first commandment but did not follow the second… this in the case of all kings except David (reference god’s). Even those kings that had faith in YHVH as the the creator of all are seen falling away from Him for allowing others and eventually themselves to not obey the second commandment (In the case of Solomon and others). The only time Israel does well is when they burn the images and turn away from the baals (lords)…. Mind you, they believed in the God of Abraham, (no1) but created images (no2).
These first two commandments to me are similar but very much independent one deals with belief in Him and the other deals with how to keep that belief in Him. We must first believe in something and then act to keep that belief is the point I think. Hopefully we all put aside our selves in that process, me included off course.
Today more than ever our faiths are tested through our interaction with worldly matters (in my opinion god’s we create in place of Him (no2) regardless that we say we believe (no1)). In those days YHVH’s referred to actual images, today I think it refers to the same only most of the time the images are in the form of worldly things put in place of Him. Sadly so.
That is the best I can put it, maybe someone else wants to take a stab at this :o) Shalom and thanks for the question sister.
Hi Teresa,
Very interesting question… allow me to add my thoughts to what Rams has explained.
Remember that when the Ten Commandments were given, the Israelites were in Mt Sinai, which is not very long after they left Egypt. Interestingly, Mt Sinai is the same place where God appeared to Moses in a burning bush and gave Moses instructions to go to Pharoah and bring the Israelites out of Egypt. Notice what God tells Moses in Ex 4:11, “…When you have brought the people out of Egypt, you will worship God on this mountain.”
Let us remember that the God who gave Moses instructions, He is the Almighty God! Why the plagues when God could have so easily destroyed the Egyptians? And why several plagues when killing the firstborn could just easily make Pharoah release the Israelites? What was in Egypt why God wanted to take them out of it when God brought them there in the first place? God could easily have made the Israelites take over authority in Egypt.
Anyway, while the Israelites were oppressed and enslaved in Egypt for more than 400 years (Ex 12:40-41), they also saw how the Egyptians worshipped many gods. Instead of worshipping the Creator, the Egyptians worshipped the creation, such as the Nile River, the sun, moon, animals and even Pharoah (Rom 1:25) and they have images of these gods they worship.
“…Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites. And the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out of it. (Ex 7:4-5)
“But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” (Ex 9:16)
Each of the plagues was actually an attack on the Egyptians’ gods e.g. the Egyptians worshipped the Nile River and God turned its water into blood; the Egyptians also worshipped the sun and God caused three days of total darkness, etc. Through the plagues that God brought down in Egypt, God showed that HE alone is God!
God displayed His mighty power: (1st) to impress to the new generation Israelites (God’s people) that He was their God and (2nd) to reveal to all nations (including the Egyptians) the He alone was the true and living God and there is no other! (1st Commandment)
So after the Israelites were delivered from bondage in Egypt, they are to worship God! We have seen that throughout history, man always have an instinct to worship but the problem was the object of worship. While Moses was on the top of Mt Sinai when God the Almighty gave Moses the Ten Commandments and other instructions (there were more instructions but not written in tablet of stones), the Israelites already went back to the ways of Egypt. In Ex 32:1, the Israelites wanted to have a physical representation of God. Further in verse 8 it says, “…These are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.” We know that God has displayed His power to the Israelites but it seems that they really don’t know who He is such that they made a golden calf to represent the Almighty God who brought them out of Egypt and this was a big mistake!
“God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.” (John 4:24)
The Israelites thought that they could represent God with something they build since this is also what they have seen in Egypt. The truth is that we cannot contain God to an image or an object. Any representation of God will always fall short of who God really is. We cannot replace and reduce God with an image or a thing. And we definitely cannot bow down to any representation that we think is God Almighty. (2nd Commandment)
Even a wrong concept of God is dangerous… it may eventually lead to idolatry… We cannot box God in our minds and start worshipping that god that we think who God should be. It is really important for us Christians to know how God revealed Himself in the Scriptures.
Some thoughts from my end…
To God be the glory!
You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments……. doesn't that mean just about every church and home is doing it wrong…
Hi again,
Just a follow-through in differentiating the 1st from the 2nd Commandment:
“On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn – both men and animals – and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the LORD.” (Ex 12:12)
This passage and even history tells us that the Egyptians had many gods. So, when God passed through Egypt, He brought judgment… God’s series of judgment (plagues) displayed who the LORD is. Egypt’s magicians and all the gods of Egypt are powerless to reverse God’s judgments. And later, after the Israelites left Egypt and reached Mt Sinai, God then emphasized, “I am the Lord your God… You shall have no other gods before me.” (1st Commandment)
While Moses have gone up the mountain, the Israelites thought that they could follow their own or others’ ideas concerning God. Man thinks it okay to worship a representation of God. Many people nowadays are deceived to think that it is God whom they worship and adore or they will merit favor with God when they bow down before images and statues. This is satan’s lie to get people away from God… allow people to agree that there is only One True God but deceive them to bow to representations (or the one god called by another name). And so, God is telling us (and the Israelites) not to create graven images or likenesses… and not bow down to them nor serve them! (2nd Commandment)
The Egyptians worshipped deity under animal forms and kept animals in some of their temples. They also had statues and illustrations of them. So the calf worship in Ex 32:6 shows that some of the Israelites picked up this way of worshipping while slaves of the Egyptians and mostly likely had even worshipped with them or as they did. The calf worship, which involved drinking and nakedness (Ex 32:25), may have turned into a drunken sex orgy and this is not uncommon in pagan worship. This calf idol may have been inspired by Apis, the sacred bull of Egypt who ensured fertility. In addition to this, when the Egyptians worship their fertility gods, this was often accompanied with lascivious dances and other obscene practices. Let us remember that the Israelites were exposed to this environment for more than 400 years – think how this would affect one’s character.
Egypt corrupted the Israelites attitude towards God (destroyed Israel’s relationship with their God and corrupted their concept of the Almighty God) as well as their attitude towards their fellow men – no wonder why the Ten Commandments.
Skipping to Commandment 10 – this talks about ‘not coveting your neighbor’s possessions’ which in my own words is ‘not to desire another person’s possessions with evil motivation’. The word ‘covet’ was used in Micah 2:2, “They covet fields and seize them, and houses, and take them…” Coveting takes place in the heart (or mind) while theft and adultery are actions. After God enumerates the ‘not’ actions, God concludes that a person’s attitude and motives are as important as his actions. God judges us not just by what we do but also by what we really want to do – God knows the motives and intentions of our heart! (Compare Ex 20:13 with Matt 5:21-22 and Ex 20:14 with Matt 5:27-28)
May God be praised!
Egypt is a picture of sin and the Israelites a picture of sinners. While the sinner is in bondage to sin, satan is the lord of his life but as the sinner is freed from the bondage of sin through the blood of the Lamb (anti-type of the lamb during the Passover in Egypt), he should make God the Lord of his life and he should have no other gods (1st Commandment). He should leave the ways of Egypt (sinful life) and align his thoughts with God’s. The rest of the Ten Commandments further helps correct his attitude towards God and towards his fellow men. (Matt 22:37-40)
God bless!!!
This commandment was put forth about not worshipping these creations or making them in order to worship them. So if people worship the cross, then the purpose of the making the symbol of the cross is wicked, but if one makes a cross as a symbol of Christ's sacrifice for us, then it is not breaking this commandment. Notice His statement "you shall not bow down to them nor serve them."
Why would God command the Israelites to not carve images and then to create the ark of the covenant? We must pay attention to context before interpreting the word of God. Surely God gave us creativity for a reason; He simply commands that we would not use it to create objects of worship. To tell us not to carve any images whatsoever would be to deny us of one of the biggest gifts He has given us: imagination. Also the idea of imagination as a part of human life explains even more of how we are created in the image of God and in His likeness.
Hi Jim_M,
I have been wanting to ask you one question since before. Kindly allow me to do so now… which church or denomination or religious group do you associate yourself with and attend regularly? …because you have been questioning the validity of the Bible in this long thread yet point your answers to the same book and also mentions that truth could be found from other places. I don’t want to guess which foundation of faith this comes from. Not to be rude but I simply want to understand where you are coming from.
God bless you my friend!
Eugene,
Does it really matter which church or denomination or religious group I associate myself with ? Does that make my arguments less valid if I don’t belong to the same church or denomination as yours ? Where I am coming from is not based from which church/denomination or religious group I associated with but those are my personal views from my years of religious studies. I seek for the truth in a religion not tailored-fit a religion into the truth. If you feel the truth can only be found within your church or denomination or religious group you associated with, then that’s your limitations. If you are not comfortable with what I have said about the validity of today’s Bible or the Trinity Doctrine, then present your views. At the end of the day, we can honestly agree or honestly disagree.
God bless you too, my friend !
Hi Teresa,
Just in case you are still reading the comments, I see that you received answers to the first part of your question (commandments 1 and 2). I would like to explain the second part regarding the “coveting”.
If you read in the New Testament where Jesus says that even thinking about another person lustfully is the same as if that person committed adultery in their heart, then coveting is also a sin of the heart.
Coveting is wanting the things that another person has. It comes from jealousy and it is not just wanting to have AS nice a car AS the other person, or AS great a wife as the other person, or AS beautiful house as the other person has. Coveting is wanting that other person’s ACTUAL car, their ACTUAL wife, THEIR actual house. It’s like throwing that other person out and moving in with all of his possessions. It’s not like BUYING the same things that the other person has, but actually wanting to POSSESS the things that the other person has. So, coveting is the sin of the heart – and it is not the same as commandment 7 (adultery) and 8 (stealing) because these commandments are actual acts that can be seen on the outside and people usually get caught doing those things. Coveting is in the heart – on the inside. We should not DESIRE the ACTUAL possessions of others.
As for the “neighbor” in this context – that means whoever you probably know. It doesn’t have to be your actual neighbor – it could be someone that you don’t even talk to that lives down the street, or someone that you work with, or even a friend of a friend with whom you don’t even associate but you know all about him and what he has. It can be also someone that you read about in the newspaper that has all the things that your heart desires and you start coveting their things.
The “donkey” in this context would probably mean in our day like a truck that serves us in our work, or maybe a tractor or something like that – because in those times, the donkey was the working animal. It carried big loads, it pulled carts, etc. It is a possession of another person, just like any other possession.
I hope this helps.
Jim M,
You have been on this thread for a very long time, and nothing has changed in your views in spite of your short absence, because you are repeating yourself like a broken-record, while you have received numerous answers from others. Obviously you don’t intend to study any of the answers seriously, because by your responses it seems you are not even reading them. If you were reading and studying the responses of others, you would not be REPEATING and REPEATING and REPEATING yourself. OK, WE GOT IT!!! You made it clear that you think the Bible is corrupted in spite of other evidences given to you. What’s your next step???
Steve,
Whats your problem, buddy ?? Of course I am repeating myself like an old record because as you correctly pointed out,I have not change my views. Without equating myself to God, God too repeat Himself or thru His Messengers (in your terms,like an old record) in many verses because He Himself does not change. Do you have problem with that too ? What’s my next step? Whats that suppose to mean ? I do read the responses of others to me and I think I have responded too. Instead of just lashing out at me, why don’t you give your views/evidences and prove me wrong. If you are right, I will tell you ‘you are right’ if not, I will show you why I disagree.
We can discuss and agree or disagree like gentlemen, right ?
Shalom.
Jim M,
You have been given all the evidence and facts already – and MANY TIMES OVER. Unlike you, I don’t want to repeat what was already mentioned on this thread.
People will believe what they want to, and since you think your beliefs are correct, and the others think their beliefs are correct – then there is no more room for discussion, because it is not discussion anymore, but badgering.
“What’s your next step?” means that we GOT IT what you believe, so move on and stop repeating the same things over and over again. It’s getting really BORING and people are not as stupid as you may think.
Okay, Steve. I got it that you yourself have no opinions or views on what I said or any of the discussions in this forum.
I don’t think people are stupid for expressing their minds. I may not be convinced by their arguments but I do learn something from them and that’s what make me participate in these kind of forums , not to exchange ‘words’ like what we are doing now, but to challenge my own thinking and learn from others who have a different mindsets. And there’s a lot to discuss, argue and learn from the Bible. There will be repeat arguments maybe discussed in a different light, repeat evidences maybe presented from a different views, repeat verses maybe explained differently and many other repeats after all the Bible is made up of about 66 books and written by 40 different authors so you can expect a lot of repeats and topics to talk about.
You are right it IS getting BORING (I’m sure other readers are yawning too at our antics) so I will stop here… unless of course you have a different views and evidences you want to share.
Jim M,
The problem is that you keep on arguing the same thing over and over again – and you have received numerous answers, with numerous verses, from numerous books of the Bible, but still you are arguing the same thing – that the Bible is corrupt.
As for my beliefs: I already gave them in the past. In addition, there were others that shared their beliefs SUCH AS I HOLD, and I didn’t think I needed to REPEAT what they said (unlike you).
You won’t change those people’s minds because they gave you their best answers, with the Bible being their foundation. But you believe the Bible is corrupt – and they don’t. So, obviously, whatever they say to you, it’s not acceptable to you because you don’t believe in what is written in the Bible – because for you the Bible is not God’s true Word – it is corrupted. That puts an end to any further discussion because that would mean that the Bible cannot be used as a point of reference. So, there is nothing more to discuss if you cannot use something as a point of reference.
What’s that saying? “There are none so blind as those that do not want to see”?
I hope that you CAN see that it is the end of it, because only the 2 of us are putting this discussion to death and the final nails into the coffin. Let’s bury it and move on to new things.
I am sure that if you come to the conclusion, sometime in the future, that the Bible is true, you will move on to new questions. Then there could be a real discussion, because you would want to use the Bible as a guiding reference and not say that it is invalid as a point of reference because it is corrupted.
Hi Jim M,
My question does matter… I have already mentioned that I want to understand where you are coming from. Your affiliation would tell us your foundation of faith and I personally would respect that. I don’t understand why you have to attack since I was only asking a simple honest question. Mind you, I have many friends from different faiths… you name it. If you answer my previous question, it would be easier for us to draw lines of common ground if we know the foundation of each of our faiths.
What is clear to me is that…
– You question the basic foundations of Christianity.
– You question the validity of the Bible – it being distorted by man.
– You suggest that Christians look for truth in some other places.
Previously, you professed being a Christian but your faith is against Christianity and now, you are unwilling to declare your own faith. So, here’s our problem:
⎯ I/we cannot align your faith with the Christian faith.
⎯ It’s difficult to carry out discussion with some deception because that’s basically what satan does. There’s really no point of discussion and we will just go in circles.
⎯ You are studying ‘religion’ and insist a certain belief but hey, we are discussing the 10 Commandments of the Bible. We study the Scriptures and not religion… read my previous posts.
If we know your faith, then we will know how to move forward. If you have set your faith on something, then let it be. You can’t keep on arguing about something that is inconsistent with the Scriptures. If you want to know how conclusions came about, we could help point you to the Scriptures – in fact, there’s already a lot in this thread!!! So, could we agree to study and discuss the Scriptures?
Let me start…
1) No one is arguing with you about the fact that there is only One God. The disagreement is how God revealed and manifested Himself throughout history. Before you conclude anything about God, it would be best to read the Bible from cover to cover because it would tell you clearly how God revealed and manifested Himself to man throughout history.
2) You say that there is only One God and agree with Ex 20:3 but disagree with the rest of the Scriptures(?). If the rest of the Scriptures are erroneous, how and why could you even believe Ex 20:3 in the first place? Would that not just render everything in the Bible as false? Now, which part of the Scriptures do you disagree with? Is it because some other religion says that there is only one god? How about the other religions who believe in many gods? Do you really think that God would give us a puzzle and spread His Word among many religion – if we figure out the solution then we do well but if not, then we are doomed?
3) We talk about the 1st Commandment and the Almighty God but you view Him differently… totally opposed to what the Scriptures reveal about God. Here’s a simple reason why: ‘The god you are declaring is too weak to even help himself and protect his word against human error in passing his message to man such that you have to search on your own effort for the Creator’s truth. You are so focused on what man can do to distort God’s Word and forget the fact that God, He is the Almighty!’
Let us make this clear and answer the following questions:
• Would you agree that the God who wrote the Ten Commandments is the Almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth? If you don’t agree, (a) then there’s no point of having reverence to some deity who can’t even help himself. Otherwise, (b) we just committed idolatry.
• If yes, would you agree that God would communicate with man? “Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.” (Psalm 11:105) If you don’t agree, then what’s the point of creating man and us living on earth? How would we ever know that there is God in the first place? Who started that idea about God? How could man even conclude that there’s only One God? How would we know where to look for God if we don’t know that He even exist? How would we even know what we should do? How would we know whether we are living life in accordance to God’s will?
• If yes, would you agree that the God Almighty is mighty enough to preserve His Word from eternity to eternity? “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.” (Matthew 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 21:33) If you don’t agree, then we are declaring that he is not Almighty at all – a weakling. If man is mightier than god that he needs our help to find him and his truth, then what’s the point of talking about God? The God who gave the Ten Commandments has just displayed to Israel and the rest of humanity who He is and what His power can do. Preserving His Word is no more than just a piece of cake. Come on, God knows satan’s scheming and man’s nature and there’s already many religions out there. Do you think that God will not do something about that and leave man to his doom?
• If yes, would you agree that God should have His Word preserved for His people to know and learn? “Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.” (Read Psalm 119:1-16) If you don’t agree as you kept on saying that God’s Word is distorted, then you either question (a) the power of God or (b) the existence of God.
• If you say there is one, which one is it?
– Point me to one and give me facts about it. If you question the validity of the Bible, how much facts about the Bible have you researched?
– Tell me how God revealed and manifested Himself throughout history.
– Tell me about God’s attributes and character.
– Tell me what God’s message to man is.
You see, the God who created the heavens and the earth is so much more than what our minds can think or imagine. “Lord, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth!
You have set your glory in the heavens. Through the praise of children and infants, you have established a stronghold against your enemies, to silence the foe and the avenger. When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place, what is mankind that you are mindful of them, human beings that you care for them?” (Psalm 8:1-4) The Almighty God who cares for His creation. He will never leave man ignorant of who his Creator is and what his Creator’s laws and decrees are. And God will never allow His people to go astray – look at the journey of the Israelites. From the time the Israelites left Egypt to the time they reached the Promised Land, God was always there – to teach and correct them and even to fight their battles with them. Again, remember that Egypt is a picture of sin and the Israelites a picture of sinners redeemed from bondage to the Egyptians (a picture of satan). And God has given us His Word… if you want facts about the Bible, here are some:
1. Fact 01: The Bible contains 66 books recorded by 40 different individuals written over a period of about 1600 years. Despite the fact that all these people didn’t meet during their lifetime, the Bible has a unified message from cover to cover.
2. Fact 02: There are more ancient manuscripts of the Bible discovered than any other ancient document. There are about 24,000 hand written manuscripts with copies from as early as 25 years after the date of writing of the NT. OT manuscripts written before Christ exist and new archeological findings of 2000years old manuscripts have been found to confirm what has been translated in the Bible.
3. Fact 03: Many Biblical prophecies have already been fulfilled. Not just 1, 2 or 10 but hundreds. So what distortion are we talking about if the prophecies are even fulfilled? Were they written after things happened? Remember that we are talking about a record of Israel’s history. How about archeological findings of old manuscripts written long time before fulfillment of the prophecies? If there’s distortion, you could always compare it with the fulfilled prophecies if they are consistent.
4. Fact 04: The Bible is better verified and exonerated, than any other document in all of human history. This is not the first time that the validity of the Bible was questioned. The Bible has been watched, criticized, scrutinized, examined, commented on and evaluated for thousands of years and has consistently been proven to be reliable, accurate, and an exact representation of the original documents penned. The Bible has most manuscripts in possession than any other document of antiquity, which makes it the most valid historical document in the world. If we are to question its validity despite the fact that it has most manuscripts available, then we are just saying that all historical documents are questionable as well including whatever religious books.
5. Fact 05: The Bible is the most quoted, the most published, the most translated and the most influential book in the history of mankind…
These are just a few facts of the Bible but we wonder how all these facts can be a reality for one Book. Unfortunately, many people try to interpret the Bible using logic because they basically blinded or do not believe in God – the Author of the Scriptures… but what’s the probability of one fact mentioned here becoming a reality for one Book? How much more for all the facts…? Now, point to me another book that represents all these facts. Again, the God Almighty is much more greater than satan’s scheming and the errors of man!!!
God bless you my friend!
"doesn't that mean just about every church and home is doing it wrong…"
It's not possible to answer your question with the information in your post. How do you figure that "just about every church and home is doing it wrong"? It depends on what you mean by that. Without further explanation of your comment, I can't answer that question.
A comment on Fathers Day,
As we come on yet another day designated by man as a day of honoring our fathers one reality stands out in my mind, “a day is only 24 hours”…
I put this thought out for discussion and maybe even daily contemplation on one of many other commandments our Christ obeyed, in this case, the 5th commandment.
Has this holiday watered down that of honoring our fathers? Does “Honor your mother and your Father” mean what it means, to honor them 365 days?
So what do my fellow students and disciples of Christ say… paranoia or truth?
The response I have heard (from non-students of scripture) argue “what’s the big deal, it is not a bad thing to honor our father,” some even that, “it feels right to choose as special day for a special person”. My question then,”what of the other 364 days”. “Oh, I love my father then too” seems to be the consensus. So, why the one day then, what is up with one special day if we are called to honor them everyday?
Can a contrast be drawn here to examples found in scripture which points to Israels’ continued goal to define self rule in the face of the Grace and Love of an omniscient Father. Is this but another example of the disobedient child?
Does the example of Y’Shua who taught us that of obedience to the Father (to the death if need be) mean he too was obedient to the commandments of the Father? in that proving the obedient son? a Holy (Set Apart) example we call our Messiah? An example that if followed by us leads to full acceptance and salvation by the Father? It would make sense right?
As far as I can summarize it, “may all obedience be to YHVH (the Father), in following the example of Y’Shua (The Father’s Salvation)… the obedient son.
What say my brethren… Any takers?
Hello Eugene,
Firstly, hope you had a good and quality time with your family over the weekend like I did. Secondly, thanks for taking the time to respond to me as I know from your response, you have given a lot of thoughts to what you wrote and I appreciate that.
I will agreed that my views are against the basic foundations of Christianity and that trouble me for quite some time too but then if I were to find the truth, then I must face my doubts head-on and pray to God that He will guide me to the right way. Its like if you want to know whats right, then you must know whats wrong in the first place and vice-versa. Its also because my views are against the Christianity foundations, I’m reluctant to declare my church/denomination out of respect for the church and I do not want to link my views to the church which I have been attending for so many years. I hope you can understand that.
Why did my views change so drastically so as to challenge the very foundation of Christianity? It all begin because I started to think. Maybe that’s where my problem is as you said we are not suppose to think when studying the Bible. Anyway, I know there is only One God because that message is universal through all the prophets but trinity and Jesus’ sacrifice troubled me. It troubled me to know that someone we love and called God had to die for our sins. It just don’t seem right. It troubled me to know someone we called God was so helpless, beaten up and then crucified and to think that was the most degrading punishment of the Romans days. When I spoke to a senior member of my church about what I was thinking, he told me that’s how much God love us. I told him it still does not seem right that God will choose this path.. this is the Almighty God who created Light by saying ‘Let there Be Light..’ and then He had to suffer and die to forgive our sins when He, in all His Greatness, could just simply say ‘I forgive’ ? To this, he just said ‘Well, He could but He chose to sacrifice Himself for our sins for He love us all’. I was a bit disappointed with his answer so I told him even the so-called sacrifice is not really a sacrifice because sacrifice means to lose forever something that you valued very much for example if I sacrifice one of my kidney to save my brother, I will not get back the very same kidney I sacrificed.. that’s the value of my sacrifice for the love of my brother. According to the Bible Jesus was brought back to life, the people got him back so what’s the value of the sacrifice ? By now, I know he was getting agitated and he told me not to question so much but just have faith. So, here I am with conflicting views but still troubled as these stories are told in the Bible and the Bible was supposed to represent the Words of God. I need to find the answers and as you correctly said ‘if we can figure out the solution then we do well but if not, then we are doomed?’ So, I came to the point where its either I’m right or the Bible I’m reading is right. If I’m right, then the Bible, which I believe ORIGINALLY IS TRUE, must have been distorted by man. I decided to study the religious scriptures, in particular the Bible again for I believe if the Bible is indeed distorted, it must have been prophesized as so many others that have been prophesized in the Bible and came by. Then I came across Deuteronomy 31:25-29 where Moses predicted the corruption of the Bible after his death. Not only Moses predicted the corruption of the Bible after his death, God Himself later said ‘Even the stork in the heavens knows her times; and the turtledove, swallow, and crane keep the time of their coming; but my people know not the ordinance of the LORD. “How can you say, ‘We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us’? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has MADE IT INTO A LIE’ Jeremiah 8:7-8. These 2 verses clearly said the law of the Lord/Bible can and has been tampered by scribes since the very early days and as such the Bible today contains a mixture of truths and lies and has been so for such a long time that its not really hard to see why billions today have taken it as the absolute truth as someone before said in this forum ‘If you continuously tell a lie, then over a period of time that lie will be perceived as the truth’.
God bless you too, my friend!
Hi brother Rams,
Happy Father’s Day… hope you and your family are always in good health and had a good weekend together. We should always honor our parents as we never know when they will always be with us. God, I missed my dad and wish he is still here with me.
Jim_M/Eugene,
Good discussions but at the end of day, people will believe what they want to believe.
Jim_M, your beliefs are similar to a Muslim. Are you already a Muslim? Just curious.
Anyway, best wishes to both of you.
May the One and Only God Bless us and guide us to the true and straight path.
Jim, You said:
“It troubled me to know that someone we love and called God had to die for our sins. It just don’t seem right. It troubled me to know someone we called God was so helpless, beaten up and then crucified and to think that was the most degrading punishment of the Romans days. When I spoke to a senior member of my church about what I was thinking, he told me that’s how much God love us. I told him it still does not seem right that God will choose this path.. this is the Almighty God who created Light by saying ‘Let there Be Light..’ and then He had to suffer and die to forgive our sins when He, in all His Greatness, could just simply say ‘I forgive’ ?”
Jim, you don’t HAVE to understand it. If you understood it, you would be equal with God. But you are not. What you are saying is that you would not fly on an airplane unless you knew to the most minute detail how fuel and air and heat chemically and at a molecular and at the thermodynamic level worked together to cause the jet engine to provide thrust to lift the plane off of the ground. I doubt you know the thermodynamics involved with that, but you STILL will fly in an jet airplane. But for some reason, unless you know EVERY SINGLE, MINUTE DETAIL about the workings of God, you can’t be a Christian? HOW CRAZY IS THAT?
KH,
You wrote “Jim, you don’t HAVE to understand it. If you understood it, you would be equal with God.”
So, you are telling me all Christians do not or should not understand a single verse in the Bible because if they do, then they will be equal to God ?
Your comparison of flying in an airplane to what I said is quite hilarious ! Of course I will fly in the airplane because that what’s airplanes are supposed to do – they fly. But if the airplane I’m supposed to fly in is a beat-up, old plane with visible cracks on the wings and the engine stalling intermittently, you think I won’t be troubled by it ? You think I won’t have serious doubts about the plane ? Similarly, God is the All-Powerful, All-Knowing, Creator and Greater than anything on earth and heavens but portrayed in the Bible as a helpless, beaten up and crucified man and you think its not right for me to be troubled by it ?? HOW CRAZY IS THAT?
Hi Jim M,
I understand your respect for your parents and your parents’ church and I respect that but would that mean that you have not gone to church for many years now? Which group have you been associating yourself and your family now? Apologies for my questioning but I really don’t understand why you previously told Rams (on April 21, 2012) that you are not really into religion but now you say that you study religious scriptures – quite a short time frame from then and now.
Allow me to breakdown your post…
You said, “…but then if I were to find the truth, then I must face my doubts head-on and pray to God that He will guide me to the right way. Its like if you want to know whats right, then you must know whats wrong in the first place and vice-versa.” “…I decided to study the religious scriptures, in particular the Bible again for I believe if the Bible is indeed distorted, it must have been prophesized as so many others that have been prophesized in the Bible and came by.” (end of quote)
Here’s the problem, you went to the Bible to prove that it’s distorted. You have already boxed your thoughts that it’s distorted even before you started opening it. In so doing, you will miss and have already missed a lot of things. As I have said before, you look at the errors of man and forget that God, He is the Almighty! He is more than able to preserve His Word!!!
Your statement, “…the Law of the Lord/Bible can and has been tampered by scribes since the very early days…” (end of quote) follows an ERRONEOUS CONCLUSION that the Bible today is distorted. Let me show you an example of what distortion of God’s Word is:
If you read Deuteronomy 31, God told Moses that once the Israelites get into the Promised Land, they will again go back to the ways of Egypt – worshipping other gods, rejecting God and their covenant with God. This was the prediction in the chapter that you pointed to and not that Moses predicted the corruption of the Bible after his death (as you stated it) – again, Moses NEVER said nor implied the distortion of the Word of God! Go back to Exodus 19:3-8 where the Israelites are getting themselves into covenant with God (please read all verses)… God was saying, ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’
And guess how the Israelites responded in verse 8… “We will do everything the Lord has said.” They were very confident that they can and will do everything that the Lord has said… but God knew better! …and we have seen how many times Israel has failed to keep their covenant with God. This covenant was renewed in Deuteronomy 28, 29 and 30. Remember that only the younger generation Israelites will enter the Promised Land and not those standing in Mt Sinai when God gave the Ten Commandments – they grew up in the wilderness and have not experienced Egypt – but the covenant still applies to them even though it was their parents and grandparents who responded in verse 8. Moses wrote the Book of the Law to remind the Israelites when they enter the Promised Land because Moses himself won’t be there to remind them. It was a witness of their covenant with God!
So, when you referred to a verse, you misinterpreted and distorted it when you conveyed it through. Yes, anyone can misinterpret, tamper or distort God’s Word as what you just did and this is exactly one problem which Jeremiah was dealing with in the Southern Kingdom of Judah. Read the next chapter where God said that the people live in the midst of deception; in fact, there were already false priests and prophets. If you keep on reading to the next chapters, it again talks of the same covenant that goes back to Exodus 19 because they have again turned away from God. Have you not even noticed that God already knew what was happening and was communicating with Jeremiah? Have you also not noticed that Jeremiah was already recording all these events that was happening? Read on and see what God will do. Will God allow the people to continue with the sins they were doing? Jeremiah’s message is simple: “Repent and turn to God, or God will punish!”
You see, the ability of man to cause error has no bearing on the power of God to preserve His Word!!! Man tampering and misinterpreting God’s Word does not conclude that God will not preserve His Word. If you start looking at what man can do to distort God’s Word, then that alone is what you see but unfortunately, you started your search with your wrong foot forward.
This is also the reason why you have boxed your view about Christ to his walk towards the cross and his death alone. You said, “According to the Bible Jesus was brought back to life…” (end of quote). You had it distorted again, Jesus was not brought back to life but He rose back to life! Unfortunately, you only picked the cross as truth and the rest are lies. That’s not a good argument – your conclusion already contradicts your assumptions. You missed all of Israel’s history and how God prepared them for Christ’s coming. Have you not even wondered why Christ died exactly at the time of when it was prophesied and resurrected at the time when it was prophesied? How about all the hundreds of prophesies in the OT about Christ?
God could simply say I forgive… God could even just end evil so that we don’t have problems with the Ten Commandments and we all live peacefully on earth but why did God allow satan to deceive man? Wait a minute, we can’t keep on going without knowing what’s happening. What is God’s plan? And stepping back further, why did God even create man if man will just disobey Him? I mentioned many other questions in my previous post. Try to answer those in your search of the Scriptures but please don’t look somewhere else because it’s simply not logical.
You said, “…Anyway, I know there is only One God because that message is universal through all the prophets but trinity and Jesus’ sacrifice troubled me.” “…These 2 verses clearly said the law of the Lord/Bible can and has been tampered by scribes since the very early days and as such the Bible today contains a mixture of truths and lies and has been so for such a long time that its not really hard to see why billions today have taken it as the absolute truth as someone before said in this forum ‘If you continuously tell a lie, then over a period of time that lie will be perceived as the truth’.” (end of quote)
Have you ever noticed that you are accepting the One God concept because it is a universal view but not the Bible despite the billions of people who disagree with you? So how many people do you think would it take to qualify truth as truth and false as false? Here’s a fact: The truth about God does not rely on the wisdom of man!
You also need to quality the definition of some terminologies you are using e.g. sacrifice. You cannot simply use a word and define/interpret it according to what suits you and treat that as truth then apply it as you search the Scriptures. Because the Biblical context does not suit your interpretation do not mean that the Bible is false. The conflicting views you are seeing is that you insist your own interpretation apart from the context of the Scriptures. You need to search the Scriptures for the right context and meaning of the words you are using. Think about it, how could you even say that the verse you are quoting is truth if your basic premise is that God’s Word is a mix-up of truth and lies? How could you tell which are truths and which are lies? How could you even say that you are right and the Bible is false? Who are you to say that? Be careful… that’s blasphemy!
“Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.” (Matthew 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 21:33)
By the way, allow me to correct some statements (another example of distortion but I will preserve what I have said):
• You said, “It all begin because I started to think. Maybe that’s where my problem is as you said we are not suppose to think when studying the Bible.” (end of quote) >>> I did not say this and this statement is false because logically how could you study if you don’t think. You would know that the Bible says that we are to love God with all our mind, heart and soul. Faith is not the absence of thinking but it is ‘knowing’ that God will do His perfect will for His people, etc… Faith should rest on the power of God and not on the wisdom of man. (Rephrase of 1 Cor 2:5) “…substance of things hoped for and evidence of things not seen.” (Hebrews 11:1). “Trust in the Lord with all your heart and never rely on what you think you know. Remember the Lord in everything you do and He will show you the right way!” (Proverbs 3:5-6)
• You said, “I need to find the answers and as you correctly said ‘if we can figure out the solution then we do well but if not, then we are doomed?’” (end of quote) >>> I did not say that we figure out the solution. God did not and will not give us a puzzle to solve – not for man and for you to start solving. The Bible already gave us the solution and you cannot find it anywhere else! I also gave facts about the Bible and so, point me to another book that has better qualities and facts than the Bible. Questioning the validity of the Bible would question the validity of all historical documents.
God is real, so when you search the Scriptures, pray that God will open your mind to His Word. Apologies if I sounded harsh when making a point…
Again, God is greater than what our minds can think and imagine! To God be the glory!!!
Eugene,
You don’t have to apologize. We are exchanging our views and we are both trying to stress out a point, which understandably may sound harsh at times..
Anyway, when I told Rams that I’m not really into religion, I was just trying to be humble as I considered Rams and the people in this forum are all experts in the Bible scriptures while I always considered myself a student. Nothing to understand about that.
Let me try to respond to your other comments without being too lengthy (I try).
You said I went to the Bible to prove that it’s distorted. Well, that’s not quite correct. The intention was not to find faults with the Bible but the intention was to find true justification of the Bible for portraying the man we love and called God as a helpless, beaten up and crucified man. A situation which I cannot accept a God to be in.
You said ‘….. you look at the errors of man and forget that God, He is the Almighty! He is more than able to preserve His Word!!!’
If you believe He is Almighty and He is more than capable to preserve His Word, don’t you think He is more than capable to just forgive our sins if He so choose to and to whoever He wants to? But no, the Bible arrogantly implies God has to die to save all Man’s sins ! The glaring truth is its you and the Christians’ belief are the one that forget that God is the Almighty. I have always place God in the highest esteem and have many times indicated because God is the Almighty in All His Glory, God will NEVER be in the position as what the Bible portrayed Him to be (errors of man?). God created Man, He is the Creator and a Creator can never be like His creation, let alone to sacrifice Himself for the sins of His own creation ? Funny how you always add a bottom line tag ‘God is greater than what our minds can think and imagine! To God be the glory!!!’ and yet your mind have no trouble to think and imagine that a God must die in a humiliating manner to forgive our sins.
The Bible, which originated as the true inspired words of God has now, over a long period of time, evolved very subtly into a mixture of truths and lies and that’s why God said what He said in Jeremiah 8:7-8. Why would God said so if He believe His Law will still be intact with His true Words?
God also said ‘Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD, YOUR GOD, that I give you.’ Deuteronomy 4:2. Is Trinity one of the additions ?
You asked how do we know which are truths and which are lies ? Again, God is Just, He gave Man the faculty of Intelligence to think. If at one side, we say God is One, He is the Almighty in all His Glory and yet on the other side, we say He is ‘3 in 1’ and He need to die for our sins then seriously, we need to think and validate the related verses in the context of Deuteronomy 4:2 and Jeremiah 8:7-8. If you don’t, then you will believe in anything.
Eugene,
In addition, I would also like to refresh your memory on what you claim you didn’t said.
Your comments :
‘By the way, allow me to correct some statements (another example of distortion but I will preserve what I have said):
You said, “It all begin because I started to think. Maybe that’s where my problem is as you said we are not suppose to think when studying the Bible.” (end of quote) >>> I did not say this and this statement is false because logically how could you study if you don’t think. ….’ End of quote.
Eugene, you did imply that we are not suppose to think when studying the Bible when you said in your posting dated June 16 ‘Unfortunately, many people try to interpret the Bible using logic because they basically blinded or do not believe in God..’ Here, ‘interpret’ means to study for how can you interpret if you don’t study and ‘using logic’ is to think for how can you use logic if you don’t think.
Hi Jim,
I can’t promise that this will be short but please read through carefully…
From your posts, I have been trying to understand your thought process and you always wanted to reason out logically which I have and will try to do. But unfortunately, you have treated your own logic and interpretation as truth apart from the context of the Scriptures. Because that’s how you logically understand it, then it should be the truth – otherwise, it’s a lie. I never said that you don’t think but let us be clear, do think and reason out properly according to the right context of the Scriptures.
Now, the problem is that you think that the Bible is a mix-up and its up to you to determine which is the truth and which are lies. By doing so, you placed yourself in a dilemma… how sure are you that what you picked was the truth? Or maybe what you picked was a lie?
‘Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you.’ (Deut 4:2). Also refer to Deut 12:32, ‘See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.’
Have you not realized that by choosing what you think is truth and false from the Scriptures is actually omitting from the Scriptures? Don’t you think this is not a ‘glaring truth’? I’ll throw you back your question: IF God did not preserve His Words and there was no truthful Word of God (or the Bible is a mix-up as you think), why would God even warn people of not omitting from it?
You said, “The Bible, which originated as the true inspired words of God has now, over a long period of time, evolved very subtly into a mixture of truths and lies and that’s why God said what He said in Jeremiah 8:7-8.” (end of quote)
Neither of the verses you quote say that God will not and cannot preserve His Words. Why does the Bible warn people of false prophets and satan clothing himself like an angel of light? Because God will not and cannot preserve His Word?! That’s really a wrong conclusion! So now you have a theory, which implies that God did not preserve His Words? For many times, the Israelites failed to uphold their covenant with God and I really cannot logically understand how God corrected His people if He allowed lies to go on as lies. If this is the case, satan must have abused God and God just allowed satan to destroy His Word? Honestly, NOTHING in the Scriptures says that God will not preserve His Word! What the Scriptures say are these and please read them carefully,
• “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.” (Matthew 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 21:33)
• “For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.” (Matthew 5:18)
• “It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.” (Luke 16:17)
• “…but the word of the Lord endures forever.”(1 Peter 1:25)
• “Your word, Lord, is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens.” (Psalm 119:89)
• “The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God endures forever.” (Isaiah 40:8)
• “As for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the Lord. “My Spirit, who is on you, will not depart from you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will always be on your lips, on the lips of your children and on the lips of their descendants—from this time on and forever,” says the Lord. (Isaiah 59:21)
Here’s my favorite: “…so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.” (Isaiah 55:11)
For the record, GOD HAS AND WILL PRESERVE HIS WORD FROM ETERNITY TO ETERNITY!!! Now, please stop with your theory that there is no true Word of God (the Bible) today, okay? By the way, my statement stands unanswered: Point me to another book that has better qualities and facts than the Bible. Questioning the validity of the Bible would question the validity of all historical documents.
Let’s move on…
Your choosing specific verses as truths and lies is definitely a problem with Deuteronomy 4:2 and 12:32. In addition to this, you would have problems with the concept of Trinity because you pick what you want and what suits your interpretation. Could you please go back to the Bible and tell me how God revealed and manifested Himself throughout history? You don’t have to worry because God has preserved His Words.
You also have trouble viewing Christ being ‘helpless, beaten up and crucified’ because you have omitted many other important truths… you always put brakes when you get to the crucified or death part… C’mon, JESUS CHRIST ROSE FROM THE GRAVE! There are many important facts before and after the cross. Let me give you some and I cant promise that this would be short…
I would presume that you know that God did not just give Moses the Ten Commandments, right? While Moses was on top of Mt Sinai, God gave instructions regarding the Tabernacle (Exodus 25 to 40) and instructions to observe some feasts (Feasts of the Lord in Leviticus 23). These feasts are very significant and let me just point to two: (1) the Feast of Passover so that the Israelites do not forget what God did in Egypt and (2) the Feast of Tabernacles so that the Israelites remember that God was with them in the wilderness.
Let’s step back into Egypt which was about 1500+years BC… the last plague which God poured on Egypt was the angel of death (or destroyer) passing through Egypt to kill the firstborn where the term PASSOVER come from (please… please read Exodus 11 and 12). Remember that this last and final plague will set the Israelites free from bondage to Egypt (again, the sinner from the bondage of sin and satan) but IF the Israelites were still alive after the destroyer passes. The Israelites CANNOT DO anything to free up themselves from bondage to the Egyptians and to escape the destroyer except if God GAVE A WAY!!! Indeed, God gave a way of deliverance for the Israelites. Read Exodus 12 and tell me what the Israelites have to do but let me give you some anyway: (1) they were to choose a lamb that is without blemish/defect (1 Pet 1:18-20), firstborn, male (Matt 1:23; Is 7:14) and hidden for four days (Matt 21-26: Nisan 10-14), (2) the lamb had to die – they were to kill it in the evening (refers to 3pm – the 9th hour) (Matt 27:46), (3) the lamb’s blood must be applied at the doorframes. “The blood will be a sign for you on the houses where you are, and when I see the blood, I will pass over you.” (Ex 12:13), (4) the Israelites must stay inside the house (They would have to depend on the blood on the doorposts of their houses to save their firstborn from death.) and (5) must not break any of the lamb’s bone (read John 19:33). There’s a lot more and hope you see a picture here. Remember that this has been embedded in the Jewish culture and tradition long before Christianity came about – so you can’t say it’s a fabricated lie again. This is history and culture! Sacrifices didn’t start and end during Passover… even during Cain and Abel’s time, God demanded sacrifice from the firstfruits and as we know it, God rejected Cain’s grain offering but accepted Abel’s animal sacrifice.
You asked, why won’t God just forgive our sins? …the Israelites kept on sinning and the world keeps on sinning because God forgives anyway(?)… you should know better than that. But who do you think would God choose to forgive? Anyway, let me continue about what God instructed Moses for the Israelites…
While the Israelites journeyed in the wilderness, they were to build a Tabernacle where God will dwell in the midst of Israelites – remember the pillar of cloud that guides them?… so, what is this Tabernacle? It was a place where they bring their offerings and meet God. (Side note: I really hope that you read about the Feasts of the Lord and the Tabernacle because that would give you a better understanding because I am trying to squeeze information here.) Anyway, the Tabernacle was a place of grace. While on top of Mt Sinai, God instructed Moses and the Israelites to present a sacrifice (Leviticus 1) SO THAT GOD WILL FORGIVE THEIR SIN – all contained in the Book of Law – a WITNESS to the Israelites when they get to the Promised Land. God will only forgive the Israelites their sins if they presented a sacrifice BUT their sacrifice is only valid for one year. They have to do this every year so that God forgives them of their sins for the past year. We don’t need to interpret these because all these are God’s commands – not a puzzle for us to figure out okay! We wonder why all these offering… how about the passover lamb in Egypt? “…without the shedding of blood, there is no remissions of sins!” But the problem with these animals sacrifices is that it cannot TOTALLY remove sin…
I hope you see a better picture before you start quoting individual verses. There are lots and lots and lots of truth in the Scriptures which are embedded in the Jewish culture and tradition (if you really want proof!). Only if you travel through the whole Bible that you will see the bigger picture… recorded by 40individuals in about 1600years… God is amazing!
Again, God is greater than what our minds can think and imagine! To God be the glory!!!
Logic and religion are like oil and water….they don’t mix. So it’s useless for non-believers to use logic against the believers. But it also makes no sense at all for believers to try and use logic to explain their religion! This is their downfall because it reveals their ignorance. Really, it’s embarrassing because the logic they use is incredibly full of holes. But hey, if their religion keeps them from running wild in the streets and killing their neighbors then maybe we should be thankful for it instead of always trying to point out how nonsensical it all is.
As a belever in the Lord Jesus,the crist,I cannot believe all the so called christians comments on the 10 commandments.We are suposed to be dead to the law by the grace of God through faith in his son,who forfilled the law for us.I am not saying that the law is of no value as it teaches us what sin is.We will all fall short of forfilling the law as only the LORD JESUS his only begotten son was able to forfill the law,but had to die for it and us to have the right to eternal life.Please brothers and sisters in Jesus stop judging eachother,as there is only one judge,the father.
To Paul,
Yes, we will all fall short of perfection, but Jesus will fulfill in us what is missing. That does not mean we should NOT OBEY God’s laws to the best of our ability. In Christ we do not have the license to sin, but FREEDOM to CHOOSE to OBEY God.
Hebrews 12:14 – Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; WITHOUT HOLINESS no one will see the Lord.
God’s laws show us the way to holy living. What we are unable to fully achieve, Jesus will supply, but it’s up to us to do OUR PART as well as we possibly can.
We should choose holiness – and not sin willfully and with full knowledge, with hope that Jesus will look the other way. Jesus taught against sin and always after healing people he told them to go and LEAVE THEIR LIFE OF SIN. Does that mean we SHOULD OR SHOULD NOT obey God?
Jesus himself said that only a FEW will enter (or find) the road that leads to life and heaven. Where does that leave all those that profess their belief in Jesus but think that they can continue living a life of sin (by NOT OBEYING God’s laws) because Jesus paid the price?
Matthew 7:13-15 – Enter through the narrow gate. For WIDE IS THE GATE and BROAD IS THE ROAD that leads to DESTRUCTION, and many enter through it. But SMALL IS THE GATE AND NARROW THE ROAD THAT LEADS TO LIFE, AND ONLY A FEW FIND IT.
Matthew 7:21 – Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” will enter the kingdom of heaven, BUT ONLY THE ONE WHO DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER who is in heaven.
In my book, doing the will of Jesus’ Father = obeying God’s laws to the best of our ability. That does not put us UNDER the law because God’s grace through Christ is at work in us to help us achieve victory over sin and enable us to OBEY God better and more fully.
This is a very serious teaching by Jesus and he did not make light of it during his ministry. Someone said somewhere: These are God’s COMMANDMENTS, not his SUGGESTIONS. He did not suggest we obey – he commanded it. And Jesus came to fulfill what we lacked in achieving perfection.
I really don’t understand Christians being so AGAINST OBEYING GOD. We obey our parents – so how come we try to find ways of NOT OBEYING God by calling it being UNDER THE LAW?? I mean, this is OUR CREATOR – and he demands HOLINESS – so why not suffer a little and leave our comfort zones, and try our best to show him our love by living according to his commandments?
Also, nobody is judging anybody here – the discussions do get heated sometimes, but mostly this is only an exchange of ideas and people looking for answers.
Paul, thank you for your comment. I agree with you. We are saved by grace, not by works. Yes, we did need the commandments to teach us about sin, that sin exists and that we needed a savior – right? If anytime your worried about “doing” your getting back into works. Just try “being” the beloved that you are….
Doing “good works” for salvation and obeying God’s commandments are 2 different things completely.
All other religions, excluding Christianity, weigh their salvation by their “works”. If they sin, doing a certain amount of good works – charity, helping the poor, visiting the sick, acting politely to others and many other “good things” – these good works, if done in a certain quantity will erase some sins. And if not, you usually have the reincarnation to continue paying with good deeds for you past and present sins. You never stop paying with the good works because they are never enough, because you sin all the time.
In Christianity, Jesus did all that we need for our salvation. He paid the price for OUR sins. And whoever believes and accepts that payment for his own sins, he is saved from the wrath of God. That, however, does not absolve US from living a holy life by OBEYING God’s commandments.
Doing those good works for one’s salvation is NOT THE SAME as OBEYING GOD’S COMMANDMENTS. God hates sin, and those commandments are there for us to guide us into holy living.
1 Peter 1:15-16 But just as he who called you is holy, so BE HOLY IN ALL YOU DO; for it is written: ‘BE HOLY, BECAUSE I AM HOLY.’
We cannot brush off the COMMANDMENTS as “WORKS”. To OBEY God is NOT same as doing works FOR salvation. To OBEY God is to DO his WILL. Now, we all fall short of perfection and we cannot fully live up to God’s standards, but that does not absolve us from OBEYING him. We obey our parents, we obey our bosses at work, we obey the work codes. Doing a good job (work) does not absolve us from obeying the boss’ rules and work codes. We still have to keep them, in spite of our good job performance. The good job performance can only give us bonuses or advance us in our position. But if we disobey our boss, no amount of good “jobs” done by us will keep us from getting fired. (If he is really nice, he may give us one last chance to “straighten out”.)
It’s same with OBEYING God by KEEPING his commandments to the best of our ability. And the great thing here is that God’s grace in Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit is at work in us so that every time we stumble or fall, we can, in Christ, pick ourselves up and ask for God’s forgiveness and help so we do not fall again. (God’s love is infinite and he always gives us another chance if we TRULY REPENT. Not like our “one-last-chance” boss above.) But, as Jesus taught those who were with him, that they must OBEY his Father and they must LEAVE THEIR LIFE OF SIN – that means that we, too, have to go into battle and NOT REPEAT OUR SINS WILLFULLY. Each time we get up from falling down should be making us stronger so that the next time we fall it won’t be as hard or as low as the preceding time – until we overcome each sin in its turn – with the help of God, of course.
Jesus said: Matthew 7:21 ‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ONLY THE ONE WHO DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN.
What does “doing the will of my Father” mean if not OBEYING God and his commandments?
Matthew 18:3 And he said: ‘Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Little children obey their parents because they trust them. Shouldn’t we OBEY our heavenly FATHER because we trust him?
The LAW cannot save us, only our FAITH in the finished work of Jesus on the cross can. But does that mean that we should CONTINUE going out and CONTINUE COMMITTING murder, adultery, stealing, lying, cursing – and then say “Hey, Jesus paid the price for all I am doing so I am NOT UNDER THE LAW?” (The key words here being: CONTINUE COMMITTING…)
The “good works” have their place in our walk with Jesus, too, but they are not something that will save us. The good works are our treasures saved up in heaven for our eternity.
Jesus said in Revelation 22:12 ‘Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will GIVE to each person ACCORDING TO WHAT THEY HAVE DONE.’
Those rewards are for our “good works” – and that is the only thing the good works will do for us. They will give us our rewards, but not salvation.
So, we should not confuse the way OBEYING God’s commandments and DOING GOOD WORKS apply in Christian’s life. OBEYING God’s commandments is not even in the same category as doing good works for salvation – and it is NOT being UNDER THE LAW to OBEY God. Yes, we can rest in the work Jesus did for us on the cross, but should we walk all over his blood and go out and sin willfully and with full knowledge without repenting of our sins and turning to holiness?
And how do we know what holiness is? We have God’s COMMANDMENTS to show us.
And how do we live a holy life? By OBEYING God and his commandments.
And what do our GOOD WORKS do for us? We get rewarded by Jesus in eternity.
So, let each and every one of us try living each day more holy than the day before, and not find excuses for sinning by calling the holy living as living UNDER THE LAW.
Most interesting conversations. It can only be explained by man’s natural tendancy for self pride. A heart felt study to the meaning of 1 Corinthians 2:14 may reveal our true intentions. Are we really to know the truth, or trying to validate our own interputations?
The only thing I’m sure of is that one can never be sure of anything. Most people don’t like that concept because it doesn’t provide any solid ground to stand on. That’s why they invented religion. That doesn’t make it true but it’s a pretty good story even though it’s extremely convoluted and open to unlimited interpretations.
Hi Mike
Thank you for the article. My opinion is that the 10 commandments is a guide for one’s life. If you follow it you will be blessed. God is a gentleman and will not force His rules on us. It is like a manual. You can follow the manual and get everything out of example your car. Everything it was build to do or you can think you can drive it without reading the manual and drive the way you think it should be ride and never know of it full potential. The Bible is my GPS and it keeps me on the narrow road.
just another thought…are you not jealous of your spouse….mmmmmm?..think about it..your spouse..your bride…of course you are…but it’s a “good” jealous. not a “bad” jealous where one goes on the rampage every time your wife just so much as dare talk to another man, or to say the least, just look at another man!!..and this works vice versa…God is “good” jealous of His bride!!…
These are and always will be the original “Laws” of the land and world. But as society is, they try to change the specific rules for their own conveniences. As the very first commandment shows; There will be no other Gods before the true Creator, God. The “Bible” is the supreme book of knowledge and truth and prime directions of life, if one is willing to follow God words. Study to make oneself approved, is another command to prevent oneself to be mislead. If Satan wasn’t around; throwing his task of multiple temptations, along with his key tool of ” Deception”. And if the only exposure of life was Gods standards and ways to follow; then his “Son” would not have to go through that cruel and needless punishment. So if one is to commit to Gods rules of life; then the actual transformation of oneself is to reflex” His Image”, as he ask of us with his “First Command” and to abstain from any and all worldly temptations and deceptions ; which are forms of selfish “Gods” which will take you to an everlasting torment. Selfishness is so random; while sacrifice is not even an option. We came into this world with nothing and we will leave with nothing, if this attitude of selfishness; which is a Godless image, which is now the key to future lives. “God Is Real”; or look at this phrase like this; “God Isreal” think about it.
How should I break down the 10 commandments to teach them to my children to where they can understand them and apply them to their everyday lives?
Comment:
“by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin”(Romans 3:20).
Response: Keep reading…there is way more to Romans 3 than that verse.
“For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. Or is God the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God who will justify the circumcised by one faith and the uncircumcised through the same faith. Do we then nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! RATHER WE UPHOLD THE LAW.” -Romans 3:28-31
Time and again the Savior and His disciples tell us that the law should be obeyed.
People make the law void by breaking it:
“It is time for thee, Lord, to work: for they have made void Thy law” (Ps.119:126).
God did work. He sent His Son to pay for the sins of lawbreakers. He paid for our sins, “that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us” (Romans 8:4). “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth” (Romans 10:4).
God didn’t sweep our sins under the rug and sneak us in the back door of heaven when no one was looking. He made sure that every sin of us lawbreakers was righteously paid for. That establishes the law. If He had bent the law by lowering its perfect standards to let us in, that would have made void the law. Instead He had Christ pay for our sins, meet the law’s righteous standards. That established that the law was a good law, we just couldn’t keep it, so He kept it for us.
This is a good lesson about the 10 commandments. I’m still a babe in Christ but yes we are under grace and yes Jesus Christ came to fulfill the law. He gave us a wonderful verse of loving thy shall love thy neighbors as thyself and Thou shall love thy God, with all thy heart and all thy soul and all thy mind of these two commandments hold all the laws of the prophets. Now if you love God your gonna keep all the Commandments which only makes sense. Keeping them by faith is what they did but with Gods grace abounding the law is fulfilled but we still should keep the law. So figure this, if thy neighbor has a flat tire coming home from church on Sunday and you help him fix it. Would you not be doing God’s work to help thy neighbor. The Grace of God is based on love thru his Son Jesus Christ…………. Thru one man’s sin we where condemned and thru Jesus Christ we can find salvation, redemption, forgiveness, and love. Its all in the blood he shed for us.
Thank you soo much for the help, this is what I was looking for.
Do you think that “The new commandment that I give to you is to love one another as I have loved you (New Testament) by Jesus – Love it.
May God bless you and yours.
Sometimes one that strives to follow Jesus Christ and his teaching’s seem to error in reading the scriptures word by word and skip and want to add something. Jesus made it perfectly clear about the Commandments. They where fleshy to that Old testament time period but still necessary. Moses ordinances where harsh and it was for obedience. as God is a jealous God and wanted his people to be in total subjection to him. Jesus Christ lightened that burden as his yoke is easy, his burden light. The law of the old testament was condemning. Now we are under Grace and Jesus Christ fulfilled the law for all that where condemned by the law. So should we keep the law under his new covenant, Yes?
For what the law couldn’t do Jesus Christ did at the cross.
I have sin’s in my life but I ask God in pray and meditation to take care of my sins. It is thru his love that he is willing to toss your sin’s in the ocean, no matter how deep your sins are. Don’t know sin keeps you in bondage.
It is thru his love and understanding that he cares’ when nobody else cares. Put your trust in God. Learn how to love him, he wants a close relationship with you and he wants you to tell others about him, that no matter how down or what situation you have in your life, lean on him and he will lean on you. Give him your heart and he will give you a new heart. Study to show yourself approved and Go and preach is word… tell others about him. May God Bless you all.
The Book of the Law Recorded by Moses VS. The 2 Tablets of Stone written by the finger of God = NOT the same thing(No Works,Judgements,Curses or Sacrifices on the Tablets of STONE & 2 Tablets do not make a BOOK of the Law). See Deut. 31-26(they set the Book of the law next to the Ark of the Covenant, while the 10 Commandments were inside it) Daniel 9:11, 1 Cor 7:19, Gal 3:10,13 Hebrews 10:7-8 etc etc.. Messiah became the “Perfect” Sacrificial Lamb for sins that the old Book of the Law requirements(Blood of bulls,goats,lambs,doves etc.) could never permanently take away. He nailed our Self-Righteousness of atoning for our own sins(Via these works) to the Cross. Perfecting all who trust in his propitiation for us. (Christ lives forever to interceed for the saints, A living sacrifice throughout the ages). Matt 15:18 Clearly shows that the law shall not pass; Heaven and Earth Will Pass before that would happen… & We’re still here. If you love me keep my commandments and they are not grievous/burdendsome. Rev 14:12 says “here is the patience of the saints, here are they that Keep the COMMANDMENTS OF GOD(Not Moses Book of the law)and their faith in the Son of God(Christ). Study to show thyself approved unto GOD, a workman that needeth not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of Truth.
Blessing Upon those who Search for Truth as for Gold.
Notice that the first 4 commandments talk about our relationship with God while the rest of the commandments is about our relationship with our neighbour.
One of the Pharisees who was an expert of the law asked Jesus… “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment.
And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
(Matthew 22:35-40)
I pray that the LORD our God will open my eyes, cleanse me, and guide me in his rightious path so that I may do better in life. To be happy and not angry or depressed. To have the wisdom and his brilliants. That I may have his love toward myself and everyone on this earth. That my thoughts and my words are purely thy of LORD above. In our LORD Jesus name I pray that with Jesus love, hus strength, his wisdom, his words out of my mouth, I may live Rightious!
You have made the decision of the space (reality) that you were created in. For some, it is this world of chaos that you believe in and the illusion you are in control. You believe the doctor can save you from all illnesses but it is your body’s immune system that heals you. You believe that the Priest can heal your sins (laws) but it is really your desire to correct the transgression by changing your intention to sin. You believe that man’s intellect is your savior as you quote scriptural verses that fits your desire to believe in the chaos of social construction. The Ten Commandments are rules to live by and are seen at different levels. If you believe in a higher level of existence (having a soul) Then as we say, we have the same Creator (Father) that has formed us in his image. If you do believe in this higher existence (faith), then you will not understand and believe in what the world has created in you. You can see this on you media devices and will correct yourself to believe in this world, hidden chaos, as you will not see, as without some rule (judgment) of law. The last five commandments tell you how to judge. Now you can turned on your media stations and make a judgment. What is inside of you that say what is good or bad. You will find out that the real laws of life were given to you before you existed (fifth commandment). And that love your neighbor as your self, as why would you kill yourself when glory awaits you in your faith of the Creator.
Genesis chapter 9 and ten describes that Noah has cursed the offspring of his young boy Ham. Way God punished the grand son for the sin he never committed? Why God made the color skin of the grand son of Noah Black or Kush? How does a person who was from whit father Hebrew person Ham, whose grand father also pure white Hebrew, way God made him Kush or black?. Is it really God is racist when changed color of white Hebrew to black to fit for slavery.
Thank you.
If the Ten Commandments were the “handwriting of ordinances that were contrary to us” was the law that was abrogated by “nailing at the cross”, an act Jesus Christ did by reason of His dying, then sin would no longer be sin as by Bible definition, “sin is the transgression of the law”. Which law is that whose violation results to sin? Are we then no longer able to sin because the ten commandments is no longer in effect as proposed by those who do not wish to obey its just requirements. If Jesus would have known that by His death, sin will no longer be called sin, then why is there a reason for that death in the first place if He could have simply abrogated a Law of His own creating? For those who claim that we are no longer under the Law but under Grace and are thus no longer obliged to observe the Decalogue, what reason is there for the granting of grace. By definition, grace is undeserved or unearned favor or merit because one always fall short of a standard by which he is judged and thus would need grace to complete his shortcomings that he may stand righteous before a Righteous Judge-full of mercy but who will be no means “clear the guilty”. The Decalogue will “FOREVER” be a standard for human behavior and character before God for all eternity. It points (as a mirror would) to our sins and thus require a Savior to fulfill its righteous demands that death is the wages of sin and Jesus took that condemnation to Himself that by accepting His gift(Grace), we can live as He lived-blameless and guiltless before the Law. Without the Law, there is no need for the granting of grace to the guilty but penitent and repentant sinner. If the Law were to be removed by any single act of its Author, His death would have no meaning anymore. But, by His Life and Death, He made certain that that Law will always be there pointing to us our failures and our obligations to seek that pardon and grace that only its Giver offers for free.
But, being saved by grace through faith in the atoning blood of our Savior does not give us the license to “violate again” the precepts of the Law that cost His Life. We “magnify” or fulfill the Law through Jesus Christ Who enables us to live by its eternal precepts as He did while He walked this earth.
God’s remnant people in the last days (His saints) as defined in the Revelation of Jesus Christ as written by John the Beloved as ” they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus”. If any man can explain that passage whilst still insisting that the Decalogue no longer holds water in this day and age is obviously advocating lawlessness and Jesus has no place in His paradise for criminals who “practice lawlessness”.
Why some people have such a problem with the 10 commandments?
Some of us try to make every effort to say that those commandments are abolished; we now have the new commandment: “Love the Lord thy God and Love thy neighbor as thyself.” If we look at the first four commandments, we will see that those are dealing with God, and the last six are dealing with our neighbors. Case and point, The two embody the ten commandments. Yes, it’s not the letter of the laws on tablets, but it is now written in our hearts. God knows that the flesh is weak being prone to sin, so Christ death is our redemption to help us with our forgiveness of sin. In our household we set up rules for our children to follow, and we know, at some point, there will be the temptation to break them. However, there are provisions of leniency.
My point is: In every step of our lives, there has to be a guideline to follow. How can we know what’s wrong or right if there is nothing set forth for us to know the difference. We are not obligated to love God or neighbor; we are given a choice what is right or wrong. God said, “I put before you good and evil, but I rather you choose good.”
Just remember, with everything – there are consequences, good or bad. Also keep in mind that, “The pure in heart shall see God!”
Practically the ENTIRE Christian Church does NOT keep even the basic 10 Commandments!! The 4th commandment they break every week purposefully!! The 7th day Sabbath was NEVER changed to “sunday” by anyone but the unholy roman catholic church which is decisively anti-semitic! Yah never gave ANYONE authority to change His Torah/Law!! The Sabbath is and remains FOREVER the seventh day of the week!! HE doesn’t change, therefore HIS Word doesn’t change for anyone, ever!
His commandments include all His Torah not just ten verses!!
Amen, my friend. The Sabbath is the last great test of loyalty for all Christians. Rome is the little horn in Daniel that would “think to change times and laws”. Will you accept Rome’s MARK or God’s SEAL?
The kingdom of heaven is at hand. That is what Jesus said on his way to the cross. Even at that moment he was following the commandments. He loved us(neighbor) in spite of ourselves. Jesus has given us all we needed to know in the New Testament when he walked this earth. I find the ten commandments to be quite wonderful rules. There is really no reason to disobey them unless you are wanting to do something that is not morally right. They can at times be challenging when we are trying to decide something in our life that is leading us in an uncomfortable way. I like to sit down and meditate for a while and if a word comes to mind and I question its meaning I look up a definition of it. God so loved this world that he gave his only begotten son. That statement right there should be the reason we obey God. Now what are peoples versions on obeying God that is a different subject. Some see God as a God who gives illness and or bad fortune, but I see God as All Love….. When you fully understand God’s love the world(your world) begins to be a much better place. Toiling over the ten commandments then becomes much less challenging. Remember what Jesus said about the mountain. The next time you find yourself with a challenging time take a moment to sit down and look out the window and adore all that God has created for you. The birds do not toil as they hunt for food for them and their young and the squirrels, watch as they play with one another and dig holes to store their food. The trees grow without any of your help. Look at your children and now you see what great gifts God has given to you. Isn’t God giving to us the very same thing he has asked us to give him.
The Ten Commandments are relevant today and forever, whatever your religion. All faiths have some form of law. All people should be kind to each other, regardless of beliefs, skin color, abilities/disabilities, gender/no gender, age, etc. I believe it is arrogant to say that only Christians who follow God’s laws will be with the father in heaven after death. All people on the earth who do their best to be kind will be with their “God” in their “heaven” after death. If we all followed this basic commandment now, life everywhere would be much better now, before death!
The problem with your thinking is that there is only one GOD and one HEAVEN. If you remove the title Christian’s, which means “little faiths” then you have no grounds to point fingers. It is not about the title given to Believers that makes them special it is about the decision to ask Jesus into their heart and to abide in HIM from that time on. There are nor multiple gods and multiple heavens. By writing “their “God” in their “heaven” you imply different standards for everyone and there is only one standard to enter Thee Heaven of THEE ONLY GOD and that is through Jesus. Jesus said to Nicodemus in John chapter 3 verse
3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
You must be born again. That is the only prerequisite that allows any of us into the kingdom of GOD. Flesh gives birth to flesh but Spirit (meaning the Holy Spirit) gives birth to spirit.
What about john 13…i give to you a new commandment…love one another?
Is this not the 11th commandment?
God father and Holy Spirit please
grateful to have found it still online today. It is exactly the guidance I need to deepen and make more personal my relationship with God. It is again proof of what you need being on your path just when you need it. Thank you for sharing your insight.
we always talked about the 10 commandments but we don’t follow it , my first challenge to the author of this article is : you spoke well that God is Serious about his commandments ,When is the sabbath day? is that the 1st day of the week or the 7th day?
There is no 11 commandment , read the bible carefully and ask the holy spirit to take you deeper. There are 2 tablets of commandment the first 4 commandments are our love to God almighty and the 2nd 6 commandments are pointing out to love one another. Jesus summarized the the 10 commandments when followed properly as Love .the 10 commandment is the caracter of God, God never changed .
Deuteronomy12:32
this reply to your comment but indirectly it does. i assume you are a devout believer in God and in my heart i know your comment is meaningful. i just have a hard time understanding what it is that god wants from us. it says in the articles title that the 10 commandments are the most important and the are not to be interpreted. yet when i read them i can relate to a few, for instance the one about not lying and the one about not committing murder. but i just don’t understand how im supposed to follow some of the other commandments listed because if i take them verbose i don’t any meaning behind them because i cannot relate to the literal text…. i’m really trying to gain a greater understanding of God but it seems like everything i read contradicts a different source. What am i missing? Am i just that bad with grammar that i cant understand whats written or is that the point, that there is no direct answer… As long as you whole heartedly put your faith in Got that you are doing the right thing? im sorry to put this question on you, but ive been trying to grow in my faith, i want to do the right thing but dont know what it is…. my hearts in the right place, but i feel lost… if you have any suggestions for me id love to hear them. its hard to say but im at the point where i question if im doing the right thing so much that i end up doing nothing, except stress out to the point where i loose my appetite and isolate myself from family and friends. anything you have to say i will greatly appreciate it, even if the truth hurts.
thank you Vic.
The contradictions one encounters when looking at the writings of people is a comes from the idea that they can understand a passage without first seeking it’s meaning in the Word (Bible). One must always read every passage found on a topic, if they then think their is confusion in the Word, they should first look at their own understanding.
The Word holds the final authority in all matters of what it has to tell us. In fact with in the Word we find, that the New Covenant holds a key understanding.
Jer 31:34
“No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
Please read that full chapter.
I am more than willing to answer any of your questions on Biblical learning. Just keep in mind, that much of what I may say, may fly in the face of most teachings you may have seen.
Hi Vic, God bless you for you have taken the first step to wanting to seek the lord. Just ask the lord to come into your heart and take over. You just opened the doors to our lord and savior to take over your life. No need to stress. As long as you are desiring to do the right thing and seeking our lord, he will take over and start giving you the knowledge and changing you without you realizing it. Its a process. Stress and fear is of Satan. Stay in peace allowing the lord to do his work in you. Look up Mathew 6:33
Trust in God and have a relationship with him by speaking to him. Ask him to guide you to the truth and his word. He is amazing! He is Alive and Almighty! Believe in him and you will see his amazing hand in your life. Ask him to show himself to you. I love you and he loves you even more!
Romans 14:4-9
Who are you to judge the servant of another? Before his own master he stands or falls. And he [who serves the Master — the Lord] will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person regards one day as better [or more important] than another, while another regards every day [the same as any other]. Let everyone be fully convinced (assured, satisfied) in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord. He who eats, eats for the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; while he who abstains, abstains for the Lord and gives thanks to God. none of us lives for himself [for his own benefit, but for the Lord], and none of us dies for himself [but for the Lord]. If we live, we live for thge Lord, and if we die, we die for the Lord. So then, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. For Christ died and lived again for this reason, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
This particular passage refers to FASTING.- days appointed for eating or not eating “unto the Lord”. This passage is not about WORSHIP. You don’t see the word WORSHIP any where in the passage, but you do see the parallels to eating. It’s about FASTING.
DO NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST
The Bible tell us that God’s Ten Commandment law will stand throughout all eternity. These verses also make it clear that the covenant that stands forever is the covenant of the Ten Commandments. This is very important, because when the New Testament speaks of a covenant or a law that was discontinued, it cannot possibly refer to the law or covenant of the Ten Commandments.
Furthermore, Ecclesiastes 3:14 makes it very clear that God will never change or abolish His Ten Commandants. At the end of creation week God blessed, sanctified, and made holy Saturday, the seventh day of the week. God never blessed, sanctified, or made holy any other day of the week, and Ecclesiastes 3:14 makes it clear that God’s seventh-day Sabbath, Saturday, will remain blessed, sanctified and holy throughout all eternity.
Many people try to twist these clear Bible texts that tell us that the Ten Commandments will stand forever by saying that these verses are “Figurative” language, or these verses are “Spiritual,” or that “Forever” does not really mean forever, or in some other way to try to cloud the meaning. Many Christians today claim that the Ten Commandments were only for the Jews, but they are quick to say that they are not allowed to lie, murder, commit adultery, or break any other of the Ten Commandments except the Sabbath commandment!…….True!
We saw that Jesus, Himself, tells us to live by every word out of the mouth of God in Matthew 4:4. “But He answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.” Directly out of the mouth of God came the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20:3-17. These are the ONLY verses in the Bible that God, Himself, wrote. And God, Himself wrote them to make us realize their importance and to make us realize that they would forever be in effect. That is why He wrote them on tables of stone to show their permanence….True!
Which verses in the Bible would you consider to be more important, the verses God, Himself, wrote or the verses someone else wrote?
Jesus said in Matthew 5:17,18 that He did not come to destroy the law. “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” We saw in chapter one that the earth will abide forever. Here again in the clearest words possible Jesus tells us that He did not come to abolish the law but that the law will be in effect for ever.
Which law is Jesus referring to? The law that will be in force throughout all eternity, the Ten Commandments. How can Sunday Churches believe and claim that Jesus abolished the law, when He says plainly in these verses that He did NOT come to abolish the law! …Jesus fulfilled the law by perfectly obeying every one of the Ten Commandments and your Bible and my Bible has NOT CHANGED and never WILL…….Amen.
We saw in (1 John 3:4 ) that sin is breaking any of the Ten Commandments. “Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.” When Sunday Christians throw out the Ten Commandments, they are throwing away the definition of sin……Sin leads to “DEATH”.
When did God institute His Ten Commandment law? We know that Satan sinned in heaven before the earth was created, so the Ten Commandments must have been in force then. We also know that Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden, so the Ten Commandments must have been in force in the Garden of Eden. We saw in Chapter1 that those who are saved will be keeping God’s Sabbath day, Saturday, holy throughout all eternity. The Ten Commandment law is the constitution of heaven. It is the law whereby God’s entire universe operates. If it were not, the entire universe would have the problems we have on earth today……True!
In fact, one of the main reasons God created the earth was to show to the universe what happens when people continually break God’s law.1Corinthians 4:9 tells us: “For we are made a spectacle to the world, and to angels, and to men.” The word “spectacle” is translated from the Greek word theatron, which means “theater.” This present earth was created to be the theater of the universe where God is demonstrating to all the intelligent beings in the universe what happens when a society disobeys His law, the Ten Commandments. As the final result of the drama taking place on this earth, all of God’s creation — men, angels, and other forms of intelligent life throughout the Universe will thoroughly understand that without obeying God’s law there can be no peace, for they are witnessing the trouble, misery, pain, and death that are the natural consequences of disregarding the law of God…..True!
Isaiah 24:4-5 is a prophecy of the trouble that occurs when the people of the earth declare that God’s law is no longer in effect. “The earth mourns and fades away, the world languishes and fades away, the haughty people of the earth do languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.” The wars and trouble, the pain and suffering all over the earth today are a direct result of people disregarding God’s Ten Commandments…..Some of the churches even today are so lost…Why?…..God wrote the covenant, the Ten Commandment to obey……Jesus said, you break one of these Laws you break the LOT…….Which law has affected most churches today…..The 4th Commandment…..Remember the SABBATH and keep it HOLY…….Remember it is Jesus who is LORD of the Sabbath not US……Amen.
We cannot disregard any part of the Bible and think you are safe….Amen…Life is real, Death is real, …..You Choose!
Apart from the Sabbath day, I think every other day is just as important as Sabbath day. We can worship God every day without any limits. We can talk to God and walk with God any time of the day we want. There’s no limit to the relationship between God and his people when it comes to communication.
Your right there are no limits. But remember, it says 6 days you shall work. The commandment says work not be idle for 6 days. We must becareful that we dont add or take away from Gods word no matter how nobal or loving we think it maybe. God is no respecterof persons.
Stay blessed.
Hello Mark…The Seventh-day Sabbath is a SPECIAL DAY. It is AN APPOINTMENT WITH GOD TO BE KEPT SPECIAL AND HOLY.
See it this way – If a Judge (God) sets for you an appointment day (Sabbath) to come to court to see him. Will you tell the judge (God) that you could come see him on any other day as you wish? The answer is a definite NO. The judge (God) will expect you to SHOW UP ON THE APPOINTED TIME AND DAY. In this case, the Sabbath
Yes, any other day can be a day of worship, singing melodies and reading scripture on your own privacy to God. But…the Sabbath is a very special day that God had especially singled out after his creative work in the cosmos. It has been specially blessed and sanctified, and given to mankind to REMEMBER the Sabbath day. Do you find it strange that Commandment Number 4 which is the ONLY commandment that starts with “REMEMBER”…and everybody ends up FORGETTING IT?
Do you see now?
Damien, Thank You So Very Much!
I recently began my Journey to Reconnect with God, based on an article I read about 6 six ago. It was about giving to God the things in life you have not control over; I was one that always held on to stress and anxiety. That one article ABSOLUTELY CHANGED my Entire Thought Process Right Then and There.
I have Always Believe in God, I have Never Wavier. Although I question Why God would “allow” horrific things to happen; however I never took the time to search for an answer. I am eager to Learn all that I can. Your answer regarding the Sabbath was of tremendously value to me. I am extremely Grateful for your input.
May Gods Bless You Always.
Bailey
The Sabbath Day is a day of rest.
Left up to man, and his greedy nature, he’ll work 7 days a week!
He’ll work his employees; his family, and even his animals, all in the name of the pursuit of the dollar!
I think Our Heavenly Father was showing the Jews that everything needed rest, from labor, even the land.
“Test Me now in this,” says the Lord of hosts, “if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows.”
–Malachi 3:10
Soujourner, your questions are good ones and show you are so important for Christians in this age of Bible denial and apostasy. The debate between Arminianism and Calvinism, is not about one system of theology versus another but rather WHAT DOES THE SCRIPTURES CLEARLY TEACH? Having been on both sides of the debate (I attended an Arminian church or assembly of believers for over a decade until I studied the Doctrines of Grace in seminary and really understood what scripture teaches. Here is a letter I wrote years ago entitled “Unpacking Calvinism” that will help answer your questions. I hope you find it helpful. For further reading, I highly recommend you read and study :God’s Part and Man’s Part by Dr. John Reisinger, Sound of Grace, who has preached the biblical Doctrines of Grace for over 50 years. Please read and study the scriptural references (they are important if you truly want to come to terms with what the scriptures teach). That is not easy (I speak from experience) because it requires one to be humble, honest, teachable and so committed to finding the truth that you are willing to admit you may be wrong in what you have been previously taught.
Please read my letter below:
Contrary to the criticism of Steve Lemke, provost of New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, the Doctrines of Grace (i.e. election) as taught consistently in God’s Word, not just in Calvinism , undergird effective evangelism by inspiring the utmost confidence in God’s will and ability, not ours, to convert sinners to Christ through proper reliance on the necessary work of the Holy Spirit to prepare hearts/minds to believe and receive the preached Word (the Gospel), not primarily through manmade methodology (organization and advertising), as is predominant in most of modern evangelism today. .
Divine election is not opposed to free will in salvation (God does not convert the intelligent free agent into a machine). Indeed, His gracious election is what undergirds and makes possible the saving response of those whose hearts have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit to freely and willingly repent of sin and believe the Gospel (see Acts 11:18; Acts 13:48; 16:14; John 10:26; etc.). God cannot repent and believe for anyone; we must do that for ourselves, through the enabling power of the Spirit, of course. Further, none of us, as members of Adam’s fallen race, has any claim upon God’s grace. God would be perfectly justified in saving none if He chose to do so. That He saves anyone is a testimony to His amazing grace and mercy. Also, the fact that many choose to reject Christ on account of what sin, not God, has made them–spiritually dead and blind enemies of the Gospel of Christ (Genesis 3; 5:12; Ephesians 2:1; 4:18; 1 Cor.1: 18; 1 Cor. 2:14; 2 Cor. 4:3-4; Romans 8:7, 9; John 3:19)—is not something for which we can blame God.
God commands that we evangelize. By His sovereign decree He not only purposes the end of human events–the salvation of His chosen people (see 2 Thess. 2:13-14; Ephesians 1:4-5; Mark 13:20)–but He also ordains the means to those ends; namely, the preaching of the gospel “in demonstration of the Spirit and of power” (1 Cor. 2:4) through human instruments to bring people to Christ. Also, because we don’t know who the elect are (a great multitude of God’s redeemed people–Rev. 5:9; 21:9; 1 Peter 2:9) and those who have been regenerated by the Spirit don’t come to Christ because they believe they are elect—rather they believe they are elect after they have come to faith in Christ (see James 1:18; 2 Peter 1:10)—it should increase our compassion and zeal for the lost.
Obviously, if by “free will” we mean that one without Christ has the moral or spiritual power/ability unaided by regeneration (new birth) to incline himself/herself to the things of God (His glorious salvation in Christ Jesus) by an act of the flesh or will, then that person in his natural (unregenerate) state clearly does not have a “free will” in the moral or spiritual sense to choose Christ and His righteousness (see John 6:44, 63, 65; 1 Cor. 2:14; 1 Cor. 1:18; Romans 8:7, 9; Jude 19; John 3:19; Ephesians 2:1; 4:18; 2 Cor. 4:3-4; etc.). He is a free and intelligent, moral agent, and he makes free choices all the time according to the inclination of his sinful nature held fast bound in the darkness of of sin and depravity, but he does not have a free moral will to choose righteousness due to his spiritual bondage in sin and unbelief (1 Cor. 2:14; Jude 19; John 3:19). .
The ultimate goal of evangelism should be to disciple new converts in the setting of the local church, so that they will grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and develop and exercise their talents and gifts in loving and obedient service to God. God bless.
Hello brother/sister! I often wondered the same thing. I don’t quite know if a painting of Jesus is wrong. Concerning your question on why Jesus is white in many paintings, I assume it is from Catholicism. Since all of God’s children are various shades of brown, I would imagine Jesus to be all of them. It was most likely that Jesus complexion was brown/dark brown. The true Israelites are said to be of darker complexion, not white at all actually. I guess we will find out in heaven!
Did you know the true Sabbath/Day of Rest is actually the seventh day of the week, Saturday?
Exodus 20: 8-11
“Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.”
-To keep the commandments, we must keep all of them, including God’s most Holy Day of the week! The Bible clearly states the seventh day (Saturday) of the week as the true Sabbath, not the first day (Sunday). This is found not only in the book of Exodus, but Genesis and several other places in God’s Holy Word. No where in His word does the Lord state that the first day of the week is the true sabbath/day of rest. This is so important in these last days, because very soon, the Sunday Law will be put into place by the Roman Catholic Church, a law forbidding the world to work on Sunday’s, when Saturday is the true Sabbath.
Revelation 14:12
“Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.”
God bless!
Low & Grace totally different
I’m blessed with in most of your inlighting articles except this/10 comandement/
May GOD inlight our heart to know the truth about low & Grace in jesus name AMEN
You are richly blessed and I praise GOD for the blessing that we recive in most of your article
What is a Christian nurse, paramedic, hospital lab person, and other medical person supposed to do to honor the Sabbath to keep it holy when they have to work on the Sabbath? They choose another day, when they are off duty, to honor as a Sabbath. I worked for 50 years as a nurse and that is what I did. The people who legalistically want to judge other Christians for not celebrating the Sabbath on Saturday have been my patients on Saturday. I even worked at a Seventh Day Adventist hospital, and they were open on Saturday. So, please relax and show a little love, compassion, and understanding. Thanks!
In most of christian belief would be Sunday, Jesus died on Friday and rose on Sunday. I will tell you to pray to God the Father and ask him when is your Sabbath. When you pray then wait and be patient. He will give you the answer.
Don Myers
If you are in a life-saving profession that requires you to work on Sabbath, that is permissible. Try to ask your Supervisors if you can have the day off for religious observance first. But if they can’t, it’s not a sin if you are helping the sick. But it also requires a measure of faith. God can provide other employment. The Christians in the Old Testament ” loved not their lives to the death”. It might be a test of faith for you. Blessings…
If you are engaged in the work of aiding the sick you are not breaking the commandments. When they accused Jesus of doing the same He made it plain to care for the sick is God’s work and not a sin.
I am reading the bible everyday and also came to realize that Saturday Sabbath is exactly what God has asked us to keep Holy. I have search for a Sabbath preaching church but none are in my area, maybe the closest one is 100 miles away. But I have been keeping the Sabbath Holy and have been spending my time with God on this very special day. From Friday night until the sundown Sabbath, I have been reading the bible and praying. The next day, I go to church, I know God wants me to fellowship with people. I don’t know how else to do it but surely want to honor His Day.
Jesus is the Lord of the sabath .. there is no such things as one day only to spend time with God .. nonsense.. every day is the Lords day not just one.. so you only give special attention to God only one day ? pffftttt .. very poor relationship you have .. so you go to church on your sabath day and only give him one day or maybe 2 hrs that you are in church and thats it ? wow .. Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Pastor Michael gave solid Scriptures showing that a Christian can lose their salvation. I also gave Matthew 6:15 and showed that if Father decides that a person’s sins will not be forgiven, that person cannot go to Heaven. Also in Revelation, Jesus told the church of Sardis
“He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.”
(Revelation 3:5)
This clearly shows that a person’s name can be erased from the Book of Life. You don’t get into Heaven unless your name is in the Book.
To not believe something just because you don’t want to believe it, and to teach your error to others, is a very dangerous thing. You will be rebuked when you see Jesus. Believe your Bible even if it says something you don’t like.
Gordon Tippett sounds like your trust in Jesus is a little tipped.. Matthew 6:15 is not talking about anyone loosing their salvation at all if they dont forgive .why would you want God to forgive someone ? why do we need His salvation ? is because we dont want to go to hell , we dont want harm on us .. To forgive someone is to not wish any harm or hell on anyone ..A true believer will not wish any harm to anyone . You cant pick and choose which sin will get you in heaven or not . Matter of fact your own sinful nature is enough to get you into hell period.
I dont know who would preach such incorrect information but Gordon Stippett, You and this “Pastor” Michael are wrong, I’m not sure if he obtained real Pastor credentials or he just calls himself a pastor. Jesus, God himself, said you cant lose your salvation If You received Jesus as your Lord and Savior by praying to GOD, admitting you are a sinner, Repenting of your sins, believing Jesus is the Son of God and That He died on the cross for your sins (period). read John 10:28-29.
And if you read Hebrews 6:4-6 and you truly have received Jesus in your heart their is change, you are a new creation, the old has passed. You want to live in a way that honors God. In this passage is referring to unbelievers – people that have been expose to God’s redemptive truth and have professed faith but do not have genuine faith. Empty words. God also says by the fruit you will know who the real believers are.
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they FOLLOW me.
Also its impossible for a real believer to lose his salvation because Christ died once for sin, His sacrifice is sufficient so a believer that falls away (which will happen since we are not perfect and fallible) has salvation secured from the first time. Read Romans 8:35; 1 Peter 1:4-5.
This is why people need to read and study the scripture for themselves so when someone gives false information you cant be misdirected.
Unfortunately you are in error , Lina , salvation is a free gift from God but He expects us to obey Him. All of his servants , including Jesus , obeyed God’s law. In Acts 5:32 , it says that God gives His spirit to those that obey Him. Jesus said in Matt 19:17 I f you want to have life , keep the commandments. In John 14 and 15 , He says to obey God commandments . In Romans 7 , Paul says not to make void the law through faith but rather the law is holy , righteous and good. He also says in 1 Corinthians 7:19 : Circumcision is nothing but the keeping of the commandments of God. The book of Revelation 14 and 22 states clearly that His church keep the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ and in chapter 22 : Blessed are those who keep the commandments of God that they may have right to the tree of life ! Read the old testament and see what the Kingdom conditions will be , there will be Sabbath keeping and in Isaiah it says that out of Zion shall go forth the law. John confirmed in 1 2 3 John about keeping God’s commandments and that sin was the transgression of the law , he who sins is of the devil etc…… So I think that these men spoke the truth and that you were very harsh on them. The bible says to be kind , gentle and apt to teach…… If you want to correct others , this is how it should be done : In meekness : 2 Tim.2:25 : In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth.
Thank so so much for everyone sharing its very inspiring. I received a powerful witness through the Holy Ghost that Jesus is our lord and savior and that’s he lives and god the father too. There have been about 3 other sacred experiences that I have had from the Holy Ghost all before 20yrs of age. But being young I got involved with friends that weren’t a good influence and fell away to drinking drugging and parting. I’m now 41 and I’m desperately seeking for the Holy Spirit to be back in my life but right now I’m struggling to know whether it’s my own mind playing tricks with me or not. I just want to feel loved and lifted up again through the Holy Spirit that’s is my journey at the moment. Thanks guys