Should We Pray to Dead Saints?
There are verses in the Bible that say that we are not to try and communicate with the dead. The “dead” are those humans who have already died and passed over to the other side – whether it be to heaven or to hell.
I believe God is telling us with the word “communicate” that we are not to even try and pray to them.
The reason is obvious. They are in heaven.
They are not omnipresent like God is. And even if someone should try and pray to them – there is no way that person would even hear your prayers to begin with unless God would allow it or would transmit the prayer to them.
Even though that dead saint is up in heaven – this person still has no power on his own to make anything happen for you. The best they could do for you is to pray direct to God.
So why waste your time praying direct to a dead saint who does not have God’s full, supernatural power to answer your prayer in the first place – and who probably will not even hear or pick up your prayer anyway, since the chances of that dead saint being tuned into your specific prayer at a specific time are probably a million to one.
When Jesus was walking in the New Testament – He specifically told us that we are to pray direct to God the Father if we have any specific needs that must be met.
There is not one verse that I am aware of where He told us that we could also pray direct to dead saints. If God the Father wanted this possibility as an option, then I believe Jesus would have specifically told us so in the New Testament – but He did not!
The reason for this is because God the Father is a jealous God. He, and He alone, is our one and only true God and Father. He, and He alone, is the only One who has the full supernatural power to answer any of our specific prayer requests.
Jesus’ death on the cross has now opened up the gates to heaven. The Bible tells us that we can now boldly approach the throne of God for prayer and intimate communication anytime we want. If you will notice, it says to approach the throne of God, not the thrones of dead saints!
I personally believe that when some people start praying to dead saints instead of going direct to God the Father, I think they may actually be hurting God’s feelings.
Here God is, sitting up in heaven, only wanting to help us in this life – and then all of a sudden He sees one of His own going direct to a dead saint who has no supernatural power on his own to answer any part of their specific prayer request.
However, I know He knows that many of His people do it out of ignorance because they really do not know what the Bible says about all of this, and they do not understand how the big picture is all set up.
Here are some specific Scripture verses telling us that we are not to attempt to commune with the dead. The clue is in the word “medium” or “spiritist.” A medium is one who attempts to call up the dead in order for that person to be able to communicate with that dead person. This is what you call a basic seance.
There are several well know mediums right now who are all over the place on TV actually doing séances for people to try and reach their dead loved ones. If God the Father is condemning this kind of activity as you will see in the following verses – then I also believe that you can extrapolate on this and assume that God does not want you trying to communicate direct with the dead even on your own.
If God does not want a medium trying to contact the dead for you – then I also believe it is safe to assume that God does not want you trying to contact the dead through any kind of prayer effort on your own. When you start trying to pray to a dead saint, you are attempting to try and communicate directly with the one you are praying to.
Bottom line:
- God the Father is the only One who has the full supernatural power to answer any of our specific prayer requests.
- God has it set up through His Son’s death on the cross that we are to approach His throne, and His throne alone, with any of our specific prayer requests. He does not want us going to anyone else, either in heaven above or on this earth.
We can ask others down here to pray for us and with us, to pray in agreement with us, but we are not to pray direct to any human down here for them to actually answer any of our specific prayers.
So if it would be ridiculous for us to pray to someone else down here on this earth to actually answer any of our specific prayers, then it only stands to reason that it would be just as ridiculous to pray direct to a dead saint up in heaven to answer any of our specific prayers.
The other question some people have on this is if they can pray and ask a dead saint to pray direct to God for them as an actual intercessor. Again, even doing this is still an attempt to try and communicate with this dead saint, and as such, I do not believe God wants us doing this. There are enough people down here on this earth that we can ask to pray for us and with us without having to go direct to dead saints who are living up in heaven.
The Scripture Verses
Here are 4 very good verses specifically telling us that we are not to have anything to do with “mediums” or the “calling up of the dead.”
- “When you come into the land which the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you.” (Deuteronomy 18:9)
- “Give no regard to mediums and familiar spirits; do not seek after them, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God.” (Leviticus 19:31)
- “And the person who turns after mediums and familiar spirits, to prostitute himself with them, I will set My face against that person and cut him off from his people.” (Leviticus 20:6)
- “So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance.” (1 Chronicles 10:13)
Notice the words “calls up the dead,” and the statement that God makes that this practice is an abomination in His eyes! When you are attempting to call up the dead, you are attempting to try and directly communicate with them.
Notice that God uses the word “prostitute” as an analogy. You are prostituting yourself against God when you start seeking supernatural help or guidance from any one else but Him!
King Saul got into big trouble with God when he asked a witch to call up the prophet Samuel who had already died. He literally incurred the wrath of God when he did this, and this eventually led to his downfall and early death.
Notice the verse says that the reason Saul was trying to call up Samuel was for guidance. Instead of going direct to God the Father for the guidance that he was needing, he tries to contact one of God’s dead saints. Samuel was a great man and a great prophet of God, but God was wanting Saul to come directly to Him for any guidance that he was needing, not to a dead saint!
This story is a perfect example showing that we are to go directly to God the Father if we need any help with anything, not to any dead saints who are living up in heaven.
Also notice the very intense language that God is using when He is warning us not to attempt to try and communicate with the dead.
He is telling us that it is an “abomination” in His eyes, and that He will set His face against us if we try and do it. He also says that this kind of activity “defiles” us in His eyes. I do not think God could give us any more of a stricter warning on this issue than by the way that He has worded all of the above Scripture verses.
Even though some people are not consulting mediums when they are trying to pray to dead saints, I believe they are still trying to communicate directly with them through their direct prayer efforts and they are thus violating a basic direct commandment from the Lord on this issue.
I do not know if this will help your friend or if she will agree with any part of this, but those are my thoughts on this issue and what I feel God is trying to tell us through His Word on this subject.
Many people are engaging in séances these days, as it is a big part of the New Age Movement. Trying to do any part of this could be major door openers to the dark side. Demons can definitely come in on some of these people who try and play this game.
Many times, the medium is literally taken over by a demonic spirit masquerading as a dear, departed, loved one, and a demon is literally speaking through the medium’s vocal cords imitating the departed love one.
Hello,
I agree with what you say, but I can’t find anything scriptural to deny a certain claim that some make regarding praying to dead Saints. They say that since we -are- to pray for one another while here on earth, and that it’s pleasing to God to do so, and since even Paul asked others to pray -for- him, that it’s okay to ask the Saints to pray for us, as well, because they are not dead, but rather, “alive in Christ.” Can you touch on this a bit, please?
Thanks
“Pray For” is you pray to God for someone. For example, your best friend Bob is sick, you pray for him means that you [pray to God] and tell God to cure Bob or put Bob on his hands.
“Pray To” is you pray to someone, including God.
Hi Johnson,
Yes, I know the difference between praying “to” someone and praying “for” someone. What I’m saying, though, is this:
It’s okay that we pray -for- one another here on earth – such a thing is actually “pleasing” to God, according to the 1 Timothy 2:1-4. So if I need spiritual guidance, I ask one of my spiritual friends to pray -to- God, -for- me.
Now this is where it starts to get a bit tricky. What -many- people say is that because the Saints are not dead, but rather alive in Christ, that it is “okay” for us to ask them to pray FOR us – and that we are not “praying to dead Saints”, but rather “praying to Saints that are alive.” It’s not that we pray -to- them, but because they are “alive in Christ” and not dead, that we can -ask- them to pray FOR us the same way I would ask a living friend of mine to pray for me.
The problem I have with that is this:
1 Timothy 2:5 (NIV):
“For there is one God and ONE mediator between God and mankind, the MAN Christ Jesus”
Jesus is the only person we should go through to reach God, not the Saints. But many say that the Saints are the mediator between man and Jesus. I believe such an idea is man-made as it is 100% not biblically supported. Not a single shred of scripture will back such a statement. You never read Jesus tell -anyone- to ask Abraham, or Moses, or whomever else to pray -for- them. But yet people think it’s okay to do. They –assume– that it’s “okay” because they apply the 1 Timothy 2:1-4 passage to those who have passed, and claim that they are not “dead”, and thus are able to pray -for- us. It honestly does not sound right to me. Jesus, as far as I’m concerned, and as it is —actually— written, is the ONLY mediator between God and us, not the Saints – not Mary or anyone else.
So that is where I’m stuck at the moment. Is it or is it not okay to ask deceased Saints (that, supposedly, are “alive in Christ) to pray -for- us -to- God?
Obey God not man or man made traditions, rituals excetra. Jesus never said to pray to saints, He said to pray to God our Father. He even prayed to His Father. Ask God for guidance on questions you have don’t confide in man, cause all their going to do is lead you towards every abomination there is against God. Jesus says, do not trust in the doctrines of man. Everything that has been made by man is sin against God! Man made things are works of the devil, he works through man to make wrong seem right, which are lies of the father of lies. The devil comes to seek and destroy, he is deceitful knowing that we can be so easily miss lead away from God, he blinds us with his trickery lies. I hate the devil and how so many people are on their way to hell and they are blind in knowing the truth. They listen and follow man and think it’s okay cause he says words of God. Listen, the devil also goes to church, and knows scripture. People will never know if man is saying truth or sugar coating God’s Word if people don’t read the Bible. That’s how you can know the spirit or fruit of someone, Jesus say, to test the their spirit, know their fruit.. If their living by the Word or if their hypocrites. You can’t live in the world and still walk with God, God is Divine and Holy, and He encourages us to be holy as He is Holy. All religions are false, they are all leading the people to the path of distruction. Don’t follow religions, God did not teach or encourage religion. He teaches us to have a relationship with Him. I would encourage anyone to get a New King James Version study Bible. And to read the Book of Deuteronomy. Ask God to help open your eyes to His truth, not the ways of man which are wicked. As God says, a man’s heart is wicked. God is against idol worship, pagan worship, and more Old Testament is a good Book to get to know all things that God is against that man is doing and says it’s okay to do. Choose life, not death..
Shalom.
Reacting to the writer on the topic, Should We Pray to Dead Saints?, I wish to state here that:
…on our Catholic doctrine, those who understand, no explanation is necessary and for those who do not, like the writer, NO EXPLANATION IS SUFFICIENT.
God bless you.
Domino,
We can’t all be right, and the things that many Catholics do, including praying to dead Saints, is wrong.
When you have someone (the Pope) who is in charge of leading MILLIONS of people by EXAMPLE, kneeling down, on his knees, in front of a STATUE of Mary, is this really the type of leader you feel comfortable following without question?
If the Pope truly had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, would the Holy Spirit allow him to BOW DOWN to a statue? Who is worthy of bowing down to? Can you step outside of yourself and honestly answer that question? If not, then let’s look at Acts and see what happened AFTER Paul had received the Holy Spirit within him:
Acts 10:25-26:
“As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. 26 But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”
The man FELL at Paul’s FEET, but Paul MADE the man get UP. Do you see the contrast? The Pope bows DOWN to a STATUE, and Paul make a man that is bowing down to him GET UP.
These actions are not Mary’s fault – MAN placed her in a higher position than God. These actions are also not the Saints fault, but rather MAN’s fault for placing them in a higher position than God. Man’s fault for assuming. So you can blame following man-made acts to that of a lack of understanding, but I call nonsense on that and so does scripture. It clearly tells us that there is only ONE mediator between God and Man, and His name is Jesus. Mark 4:9.
May God bless us all.
Anthony, well said! as the writer puts it; The dead saints are not omnipresent like God is, calling upon them to pray for us,to me its just a waste of time.
In the beginning God! No mary no joseph no peter paul no timothy no enemy no john no michael. So if the beinning God no sky no cloud no rain no prayer no existence no prayer no salvation. God! Now all things were created by Him and for Him! Heaven and earth, kingdoms and throne. Powers, rulers…it would be nice to keep it just as in the simplicity of Jesus himself. Prayer belongs to God. Jesus said I AM! to make it a lil more clear I am the way the truth and the the life. He is salvation he is the air we breath it all belongs to God! He is the ressurection and life. He is above all:) King Jesus Amen
I have a few questions for my Protestant brethren,
In the weeks and months and then years that followed the death and resurrection of our Lord,
were these Christians who were being baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit,
taking their instruction on how to live holy and Christ like lives, from the Christian Bible or from the Apostles?
Since anybody possessing honest knowledge of the Christian Bible knows that it wasn’t even in existence for many decades and not widely read or heard for centuries, the truth is that the Apostles were the authority in matters of faith and morals and Christ chose for it to be that way or He would not have given them the authority to baptize, to loose and bind sin, also, He would not have given the keys to the Kingdom to Peter.
If the Bible is the sole authority in such matters, and each individual is allowed to interpret scripture with the desire that it be done with the aid of the Holy Spirit, are the interpretations of a person who makes little effort to study all of the nuances and styles or forms of writing, equal to a Scripture scholar who spends countless hours in prayer to the Holy Spirit and to Christ and to His Father in an effort to discern correctly the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? If they differ, how does one know which person actually was instructed by the Holy Spirit? If one person uses Sacred Scripture to denounce abortion as evil and a grave sin against God and humanity, and another uses Sacred Scripture to accept abortion as a good in some instances, is the Holy Spirit contradicting Itself or is sin relative in the eyes of God?
As regards the Pope kneeling before a statue of our Blessed Mother, you should know that he is kneeling before the woman who brought our Lord into this world and who holds a place of honor in heaven below only that of the Triune Godhead. While carrying Jesus in her womb for nine months, her Immaculate Heart and our Lord’s Sacred Heart were mere inches apart and in heaven
no being, not even the highest of angels, have the recourse to the Sacred Heart of Jesus that our Blessed Mother has. One may proclaim that Sacred Scripture does not make that implicitly true but then how do you explain the modern miracles taking place in Kibeho Africa, Medjugorje, Lourdes France, Fatima Portugal, Guadalupe Mexico or Garabandal Spain. It is either satan performing all these good works or, an incomplete understanding of the role Mary plays in salvation history.
In the Old Testament, Eve is most often referred to as the WOMAN and in the book of Revelation, it is the WOMAN clothed with the sun who will defeat satan and in the Gospels of the New Testament, Christ refers to His mother as WOMAN. Is that just coincidence or does the Catholic Church, the continuation of the Apostolic teaching authority have this correctly.
What did the early Church fathers have to say about the Mother of our Lord and Savior and do you think that having lived in her presence and having been instructed by our Lord Himself, and then passing that knowledge on directly to their successors, maybe they got this right?
Kneeling in front of an image of the WOMAN who cooperated with the plan of God for our salvation, by saying yes and bringing Him into the world, nurturing Him and being at His side, even to His horrific death and burial, is no sin but a humble act of reverence in the hope that she and her Son will find favor with his prayers.
Does not Scripture state that God loves a humble heart?
Thank you for putting up with my thought and questions; may you have a blessed and joy filled advent season and rejoice in the memory of the birth of our Lord, the Word made flesh who did dwell amongst us and does today in His Mystical Body, the Church.
To Anthony:
If Catholics did in fact place Mary or the Saints in heaven above God and worship them as if they were equal to or greater than God, all you stated would be true and a grave sin would have been committed, but Catholics do not worship anyone or anything other that the Triune God.
Mary is held in great esteem and the Church considers her the mother of all souls, here on earth and in heaven. As our mother, she wants only one thing, to draw hearts to her Son and to exhort all men to live in the Will of the Father and be holy as the Father is Holy. The Church believes that she is in the unique position to accomplish just such a desire and sometimes in ways that come from the spiritual realm and are outside the constraints of time and space. These occurrences are well documented and not infrequent.
As concerns the Saints in heaven; the Catholic Church refers to those of us on earth who have been baptized into Christ as being the church militant and those souls in heaven as the church triumphant. We on earth are fighting the good fight that saint Paul referred to in his letter or epistles, a fight against the forces of evil that prowl about the earth seeking the ruin of souls.
Once we pass from time into eternity and once we enter heaven, we have won that continues battle and truly are triumphant. It’s really only one church and there is no reason whatever to think that God does not permit or that he doesn’t desire that the saints in heaven pray for those of us on earth. If satan is permitted to enroll the services of fallen angels, why would not the righteous angels and their brethren the saints, not be enlisted to counter evil?
Praying to the saints in heaven and the archangels, seraphim and cherubim, is not only not wrong but is most wise. There is much going on in the spiritual realm that we cannot fully appreciate or comprehend but that does not mean it isn’t real or actual. Not believing something exists does not in any way alter that reality. One may say that they do not believe in hell but that won’t be worth much if that is where they spend eternity.
There are three very important Catholic teachings that are a tremendous benefit to souls working out their salvation; The role Mary plays in salvation history as the protectress of the believers,
the communion of saints and their role in salvation history as protectors and intercessors and Purgatory and the value of all prayers for those souls suffering the temporary separation from God while they are being purged of those attributes that remained with them onto death but were not in accord with the Will of God. Souls who have none praying for them have no ability of their own to mitigate suffering and increase hope while they are being purified.
I’m well aware that most if not all Protestants reject this teaching / belief but not believing in this reality will be of no use if your soul is in fact residing there.
That is why I pray daily for those friends of mine who have passed from this life and who as Protestants, reject this existence.
@john, thats the Holy Spirits Job not mary’s job or any dead saint. Also in Deuteronomy in the 10 commandments you shall not make to yourself any graven image that is in heaven should be plain enough.also in the last days many will depart from the truth and be turned unto fables. If you or anyone you know are praying to dead saints, then its time to get new friends and a new church. Remember the Lord says one day He will not know you depart from me cursed ones thats not what you wanna hear.
Your whole argument is based on the fact that praying to saints is praying to dead people. Saints are in heaven and in union with God, are you saying heaven is a place for the dead? Your body dies, you don’t die for Jesus is ethernal life. Read: Mat 19:29, 25:46, Mat 10:17-22, Mk 10:30, Lk 10:25-30, Lk 18:18-30, Jn 3:15-16
Second of all, true catholics don’t pray for saints to grant them things, we ask for them to pray with us, they are not dead since they are in heaven. “Now he is a God not of the dead, but of the living; for to him all of them are alive.” (Lk 20:39-40). What is wrong with this? Don’t we ask each other to pray for one another? I ask my parents to pray for me. Is their prayer a waste of time? Should i tell my dad to stop praying for me, that i can just pray to God directly?. I ask a saint to pray to God, just like i ask my family, this NEVER replaces my prayers to Him. Do not criticise if you don’t understand what we do.
I feel saddened when I read some comments here, it’s okay for pope to bow to a statue of mary! I mean exodus 20:4-5 its written Exodus 20:4-5 NKJV
You shall not make for yourself a carved imageany likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate
Me,and one still defends the pope bowing to a statue!.. He is not a God for him to be ruled out of this command. He is human. Not forgetting catholics have their own missal.. Mass book for the year, teaching or preaching should come from within, as the Holyspirit moves you, not from a missal like a school teacher using a text book for their students! Using beads to pray.. Where didthat come from? To mary? She is dead, we can only assume she is in heaven.. Mathew 20:31-32. Matthew 22:31-32 NKJV
But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob ? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.He is not a God of the dead.. What do we make from this?? Are yu praying to a Godless thing! How will it help yu! Anyways I have been born and raised catholic its now at 32yrs am coming to the real truth am not yet done digging it out, I need for my family to know the truth hopefully I pray God will open their hearts to receive the truth like i did. It’s really sad. GOD BLESS YOU ALL.
Dont mind them if they dont listen. God will handle them. Some are already blind to the truth.
1.) You say, “If Catholics did in fact place Mary or the Saints in heaven above God and worship them as if they were equal to or greater than God, all you stated would be true and a grave sin would have been committed, but Catholics do not worship anyone or anything other that the Triune God.”
What you say and what you do are two different things. It doesn’t matter if you say you don’t, your actions speak louder than anything that can ever come from your mouth.
2.) You say, “Mary is held in great esteem and the Church considers her the mother of all souls, here on earth and in heaven.”
My soul has ONE Mother, ONE Father, ONE Owner: God. It’s the Catholic church that gives her titles she does not deserve, not scripture, NOR Jesus, but rather the Catholic church!
If you think about it, even JESUS never called her “mother,” yet the Catholic church concludes that she is the “mother of all souls.”
What did Jesus say/do when His “mother” asked to speak to Him?
Matthew 12:49-50:
“49 And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
He stretched out His hand to WHO? Mary??? NO! His DISCIPLES! Jesus did not accept her as His mother, and Catholic church makes her the “mother of all.” You come to such a conclusion on your OWN, not because of scripture, NOT because of what Jesus said, but because of what you believe to be true. You rely on your self and Mary to guide you into salvation, leaving The Father and Son and scripture in the background. Whenever I hear a Catholic speak, I never hear Jesus. It’s always about Mary. Songs for Mary, Prayers to Mary. Wake up!!!
4.) You say, “Not believing something exists does not in any way alter that reality.”
– Well believing in something surely does not make it true, either. Someone is wrong!
5.) You say, “As regards the Pope kneeling before a statue of our Blessed Mother, you should know that he is kneeling before the woman who brought our Lord into this world…”
– Here’s something YOU should know. It was a STATUE, not a “WOMAN.” He was not, “kneeling before the woman”, as you say above. You do realize this, don’t you? It was a piece of plastic the man was kneeling in front of, not a real woman. It would STILL be wrong if it WAS a woman, but it was not!
– I don’t care what excuse you have as to why a man bows DOWN to a statue, it is NOT RIGHT. PERIOD! You feel validated of what the Pope did because you have an excuse? Really? Peter shows us such a thing is not right, and you choose to turn a blind eye towards what he did.
Let it be know that what YOU do is not Mary’s fault, but rather YOUR fault and the fault of like-minded people who put HER (she doesn’t put herself) on a higher pedestal than God or a pedestal “right beneath the Triune Godhead.” You see? YOU do that, NOT MARY. If Mary was here, in flesh, and if she had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, like Peter did, SHE, TOO, would have made the Pope, “STAND UP.” She, TOO, would make everyone place God FIRST in their lives. Sing songs about HIM, and ask that you pay her NO ATTENTION. You will never accept this, though. So keep kneeling in front of inanimate objects.
– “and who holds a place of honor in heaven below only that of the Triune Godhead.”
SHOW ME, please, exactly, how you came to this conclusion other than ASSUMING such is the case. Please. If not anything else, show me THIS. Show me what you say is not more than WORDS spoken from your mouth, and that such words actually point to a Truth. Please.
5.) You say, “One may proclaim that Sacred Scripture does not make that implicitly true but then how do you explain the modern miracles taking place in Kibeho Africa, Medjugorje, Lourdes France, Fatima Portugal, Guadalupe Mexico or Garabandal Spain.”
What miracles? Images in the sky? You depend NOT on scripture, but rather on “miracles” you see in the sky? Visions, perhaps? Is it not said, “…for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light???” If what you imply was of ANY importance, it would be in scripture. Period. If what you say held AN OUNCE of importance with regard to our SALVATION, it would be in the bible. PERIOD!
6.) You say, “It is either satan performing all these good works or, an incomplete understanding of the role Mary plays in salvation history.”
– What are these “good works” you speak of? Please, tell me.
– Mary plays NOT ONE ROLE in our salvation. NONE! JESUS is the Way, NOT MARY!!! May the Lord open your eyes so that you see this.
7.) You say, “What did the early Church fathers have to say about the Mother of our Lord and Savior and do you think that having lived in her presence and having been instructed by our Lord Himself, ”
– “…being instructed by our Lord Himself” to do what? You didn’t finish that sentence. Please, finish it. WHAT, exactly, did the Lord “Himself” instruct the the Church to do with regard to Mary? Please be sure to provide scripture.
8.) You say, “Kneeling in front of an image of the WOMAN who cooperated with the plan of God for our salvation, by saying yes and bringing Him into the world, nurturing Him and being at His side, even to His horrific death and burial, is no sin but a humble act of reverence in the hope that she and her Son will find favor with his prayers.”
You are doing the SAME thing Cornelius did to Peter:
“Cornelius met him and FELL at his FEET in REVERENCE. BUT, Peter MADE HIM get UP. ‘STAND UP,’ he said, ‘I am ONLY a MAN myself.”
You are confusing BOWING with bowing DOWN. There is a HUGE difference. BOWING does NOT mean you KNEEL, it means you use the TOP half of your body to bow in reverence – as a sign of respect – the way those in martial arts would bow. Bowing DOWN means you are on your KNEES, pretty much face down against the floor, falling at someones “FEET”, like Cornelius. THAT is what the Pope does and THAT is what you say is “okay” to do.
If you want to bow DOWN to statues of Mary, then surely that is YOUR choice, but again, be reminded of what Peter (someone we ALL can agree HAD the Holy Spirit within Him) said above when the man bowed DOWN in front of him: “STAND UP!”
9.) You say, “If the Bible is the sole authority in such matters, and each individual is allowed to interpret scripture with the desire that it be done with the aid of the Holy Spirit, are the interpretations of a person who makes little effort to study all of the nuances and styles or forms of writing, equal to a Scripture scholar who spends countless hours in prayer to the Holy Spirit and to Christ and to His Father in an effort to discern correctly the inspiration of the Holy Spirit?”
The Pharisees were in that same position, weren’t they? Who knew the law or God’s word better than them? They could recite the bible both forward AND backward by memory, and yet we all know where that led them. Jesus said to them, ““You do not know me or my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also.”
So don’t think for a second because you study the bible, that makes you an authority on all things True. It’s surely possible that a scholar can lack the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, as showcased above, and he who knows nothing of the world can be full of the Holy Spirit. We can’t assume that because someone is a scholar that they automatically have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
But let’s say they’re not equal – surely not being equal doesn’t, again, —automatically— make what the scholar says infallible. I would hope you would agree? Having a PHD might help you understand where Jesus was on a Wednesday, but it won’t explain to you what He meant when He was speaking on that day. You can’t interpret spiritual matter using fleshly things – using things (PHD/worldly knowledge) attained by man.
10.) You say, “Does not Scripture state that God loves a humble heart?”
What does this have to do with anything?
Anthony stated:
“If you think about it, even JESUS never called her “mother,” yet the Catholic church concludes that she is the “mother of all souls.”
For nearly 33 years our Lord lived with and was raised by His mother Mary, are you stating that you know for a fact that all through His childhood he only referred to her as woman? Are you attempting to argue that because on a few occasions the scriptures quote our Lord as using the tern Woman, he never once called her mother? I doubt any scripture scholar, Protestant, Catholic or Jewish would make that statement and be able to successfully defend it.
Here is something to consider; in the history of mankind, exactly how many virgins were overshadowed by the Holy Spirit and carried the Son of God in her womb? Did Mary have free will or did God make her bear His Son? Do you think Mary was simply a random pick and just like any sinner and therefore the son of God entered the womb of a sinner? Where in the bible would that thinking be supported?
When you quote the Old Testament regarding graven images you are talking about a time in history when those images were looked upon as some sort of god, a pagan practice that the Jews
were instructed never to worship. The images of Mary and other Saints, be it statues, paintings, medals or what have you, are not worshipped and they are not thought of as representing God; I don’t know why you can’t differentiate between something that is used to call a person to mind, like you would a painting or photograph of a loved one, and an image that is worshipped as if it were a god. They are two entirely different purposes and non Catholics are making false assumptions in this regard.
I can no better prove that Mary holds the highest place in Heaven of all created beings than you can prove she doesn’t. Some matters simply must be taken on faith. But a careful understanding of the entire Bible, or put another way, taken in it’s entire context, appears to support the catholic teachings on Mary. The Bible doesn’t state that God entered the womb of a sinless woman but do you really believe He who was without sin entered a sinful womb? My point is that some matters of faith are implicit and some are explicit. And that brings me to interpretation.
If one may only believe those things explicitly stated by our Lord how does one reconcile John’s words in chapter six, the latter verses, in which our Lord stated with a double amen, amen I say to you, if you do not eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you? And as you continue to read the following verses, you discover that many disciples rejected His words and His disciples commented that they were difficult to hear and what was our Lord’s response? Did he say, I was just speaking in parables? Did he say to those who were leaving, come back, you misunderstood me? Did He tell His Apostles that they didn’t need to follow this teaching? No He did not! The teaching stands. It stood then and it stands now and cannot be successfully explained away unless you somehow agree to say such a thing is implied by the fact that it’s not possible to eat His flesh or drink His blood. But then you need to explain away the last supper.
The Bible explicitly states that ” All generations will call me Blessed” in our Blessed Mother’s magnificat; when was the last time you referred to her as blessed?
Lastly, you ask the question, what does the Pope having a humble heart have to do with anything? The Pope as successor to Peter, is the servant of God just as Peter was shown and taught by our Lord Himself at the last supper, as told in John’s Gospel. God Himself in the incarnation, exhibited the greatest display of humility possible, He entered His own creation. Christ, at the last supper washed the feet of His apostles, an act of humility beyond the understanding of His chosen apostles but explicitly required by Christ if they expected to be His
Church on earth. Servants are both obedient and submissive in the proper context. The Pope knows that when he kneels down in front of an image of Mary he is humbly requesting that as the Mother of Christ, she hear his prayers and present them to her Son, for the good of His Church. Yes, he could pray directly to God but out of respect of her honored position and the trust that he has in her intercessory position, he honors God by honoring the one woman, chosen from all creation, to bring into this world the Messiah.
We will need to agree to disagree on these matters and that’s unfortunate but the schism that took place in the 16th century may never be rectified prior to our Lord’s second coming.
I will however ask again but in slightly different words, if you were one of the Christians who were baptized in the days or weeks or months following our Lord’s death and resurrection, how would you have known God’s will without the use of the Bible which didn’t exist? If the Bible is truly the only authority in matters of faith and morals, why didn’t our Lord have scribes writing down His every word and then establish the canon Himself before leaving earth?
Romans 1:18-25 NLT
But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.
Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles.
So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen.
I touched specifically on many things you said, and you answer ONLY my last question. Why? What I asked was in need of your attention and response. Why overlook what I ask of you to answer? Are my questions not important to you? Or do you not have an answer to some or all of them?
1.) You asked, “Are you attempting to argue that because on a few occasions the scriptures quote our Lord as using the tern Woman, he never once called her mother?”
Not only that, but show me one place where he actually DID call her “mother.” You can’t.
But what I’d really like to call your attention to is this: He didn’t refer to her as a “mother” when He was an adult – when He was fulfilling the reason for being sent to earth.
Also, which is of equal importance, calling your mother “woman” is a sign of disrespect, and thus why I don’t believe He considered Mary His mother. No one would call their mother “woman” – not me, not you, nor Jesus if He TRULY considered her His mother. But Jesus was GOD and God KNOWS that He does NOT have a MOTHER.
Show me ANYWHERE, in ANY book, where ANY religious CHILD called his OWN mother (not just ANY random lady) a “woman.” Give me ONE single exmaple. JUST ONE!
2.) You ask, “Do you think Mary was simply a random pick and just like any sinner and therefore the son of God entered the womb of a sinner?”
No, of course not. Stop assuming. Of course she was a blessed woman, but try to understand that she should not be placed in an equal position to God and thus should not be bowed down to. THAT is ALL I am trying to get across to you or any anyone else reading this.
3.) “When you quote the Old Testament regarding graven images you are talking about a time in history when those images were looked upon as some sort of god, a pagan practice that the Jewswere instructed never to worship. The images of Mary and other Saints, be it statues, paintings, medals or what have you, are not worshipped and they are not thought of as representing God;”
And? Why can’t the same apply in this day and age? If you say that Mary is in Heaven, and exodus CLEARLY tells us not to “make” for ourselves an image in the form of ANYTHING in HEAVEN, and NOT to BOW DOWN to said image, then are you not breaking that command by bowing DOWN to Mary, who is IN heaven?
4.) You say, “I don’t know why you can’t differentiate between something that is used to call a person to mind, like you would a painting or photograph of a loved one, and an image that is worshipped as if it were a god.”
Please don’t compare the Pope bowing down to a statue to even a PICTURE of Mary. No one bows down to pictures, as they are used as a means of remembrance. There is a difference.
5.) You say, “I can no better prove that Mary holds the highest place in Heaven of all created beings than you can prove she doesn’t.”
YOU make the claim, so YOU have the burden of proof. But anyway, even if what you say was the case, then ANYONE can say ANYTHING (regardless of whether or not it’s in the bible) and then claim that such a thing is true because another person can’t disprove it. It’s a very, very, very weak argument at BEST.
6.) You say, “But a careful understanding of the entire Bible, or put another way, taken in it’s entire context, appears to support the catholic teachings on Mary.”
“Appears.” Yes, you look through a distorted lens and what you see, you claim to be Truth. Yet you can’t answer any of my questions and can’t provide a single passage supporting what you say. If it was so “clear” what you speak, then you would at the very least -attempt- to show me using scripture how truly clear it really is, but instead what you do is graciously back out of this argument using the “let’s agree to disagree” comment.
7.) You say, “The Bible doesn’t state that God entered the womb of a sinless woman but do you really believe He who was without sin entered a sinful womb?”
Again, WHO mentioned ANYTHING, ANYWHERE, about Mary being sinful? You answer almost NONE of my questions, but what you do is the same thing the Catholic church does almost ALL too well: ASSUME! You ASSUME that I think of Mary as NOT being blessed, when I haven’t implied NOR said such a thing even ONCE. It is written that she was a, “highly favored” woman: Luke 1:28. So now you can hopefully tune in on where I’m going with all of this, instead of diving head first into that which does NOT exist.
8.) You say, “The Bible explicitly states that ” All generations will call me Blessed” in our Blessed Mother’s magnificat; when was the last time you referred to her as blessed?”
You are confused. Me not placing her in the SAME position as God, or placing her, “right BENEATH the position of God”, does not in ANY WAY, SHAPE or FORM imply that I do NOT think she was blessed. But MANY people were blessed – surely, though, being blessed is not enough to place you in a position right beneath God or in a position of worship.
9.) You say, “The Pope knows that when he kneels down in front of an image of Mary he is humbly requesting that as the Mother of Christ, she hear his prayers and present them to her Son, for the good of His Church. Yes, he could pray directly to God but out of respect of her honored position and the trust that he has in her intercessory position, he honors God by honoring the one woman, chosen from all creation, to bring into this world the Messiah.”
This is where we will have to agree to disagree. No one is to be bowed down to. NO ONE, but God. You can write a books worth of excuses as to WHY the Pope does things he should NOT do, but surely it doesn’t make it right.
Sorry Antony.. I meant the guy who says it’s okay to bow to a statue of mary.. Yet one of the commandments is so clear there.. What bible are they getting it from? Trying to do away with God’s law? One person tried that.. It was lucifer.
Antony I like your arguments, it took alot of praying and starting to really study the bible that got me to knowing and learning the truth, having believed in the catholic doctrines for years.. I pray I will get more of them to know the truth.
As long as we are pointing out those things that I avoided addressing, maybe we should go back to the beginning and consider why you avoided speaking to the reality that the bible didn’t exist at the earliest moments of Christianity but the Apostles did and that is where our Lord placed the authority to baptize and teach His truth. The FIRST and lasting authority is Apostolic, from which the new testament came into being through the Holy Spirit which came upon them at Pentecost.
You also cherry picked those points you wanted to expound on in this latest post and chose not to address John’s discourse on the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. So I guess we are both guilty of the same actions.
Just so you too are clear, Mary is a created being and in no way above that stature. She is not God and is not to be thought of as more than a HIGHLY FAVORED & BLESSED BEING.
All of your arguments come from individual verses of scripture, taken out of context for the purpose of proving a point but ignore major realities such as Apostolic tradition and the authority our Lord gave to Peter and His Apostles.
This is a circular argument that will accomplish little but to allow each of us to defend our positions regarding our beliefs. I’m in communion with the Church I trust was founded by our Lord while on earth and confirmed by the Holy Spirit and you’re not, so our beliefs must differ.
You believe that the bible is the sole authority, even though there is nothing stated explicitly in the bible to support that position. Since I believe that the Pope is the current successor to Peter and the appointed supreme authority on matters of faith and morals, I trust that when he kneels down and prays in front of a statue of the Blessed Virgin, he is in no way substituting her for God.
The Catholic understanding of Mary as taken from scripture varies so dramatically from Protestant thought that no meeting of the minds is possible.
The three pillars of Catholic faith are Sacred Scripture, Apostolic Tradition and the Chair of Peter, to whom was given the ” Keys to the Kingdom”. You believe in the single pillar of Sacred Scripture alone. It had to be that way in order for Luther to distance himself from the Catholic Church. The people of the 16th century who were dissatisfied with the papacy and the teaching authority of that time, would have had it no other way.
Their dislike or even hatred permitted them to accept as Truth, the teachings of one man over the teachings of numerous councils dating back to the Apostles. Examining the two positions I choose to side with what I trust is the continuation of that which our Lord founded upon his handpicked nucleus.
Both positions possess the Truth but in varying degrees and I trust and believe that the Catholic Church possesses the fullness of that Truth, you do not and likely never will and for God’s own purpose, that has been permitted to happen.
I truly wish you every spiritual blessing and a safe journey home to our God. We may be taking different routes but hopefully, God’s Mercy will allow for each of us to spend eternity in His Presence. I trust and pray He will.
May God bless you and your family this glorious Advent Season and may the remembrance of His Sacred Birth help to bring you joy and peace.
Lindal
John you are deceived by the demon of religion. All catholicism /protestants/ churches are rife with infestation of religious demons. JESUS CHRIST Is CHRISTIANITY. demons are very real and they have been around for centuries long before man ever walked the earth. They are extremely intelligent being able to convince/outwit any man unless that man is filled by the Holy Spirit. The Pope has no Holy Spirit within him His fruits show so and should be taken as a warning to us all. Them without The Holy Spirit will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. We must go through JESUS in order to get into HEAVEN NOT MARY OR SAINTS OR HOLY BEADS PICTURES CROSSES ETC. . PRAY TO JESUS CHRIST ALONE…..
This time, you chose to answer NONE of my questions. I wonder why. You make claims that you say are so very “clear”, and yet even though they’re as “clear” as day to you, you choose not to further elaborate on these so-called “truths” and explain in detail to the rest of us using scripture why you believe the things you do. Could it be because you have NO answers and that you simply, like an automaton, recite what has been ingrained in your mind by the Pope as being “true?”
You see, many people can say many things, but when confronted about such things, many back down. Such was the case with you. You did not touch 99.9% of my questions pertaining to claims YOU placed on the table, that YOU said are very “clear”, and you expect me or other Christians to take what you say seriously? You’re probably use to people nodding their head in agreement to everything that comes from your mouth, not having it in them to question the things you say. Well, when your actions (or actions you AGREE with) are in CLEAR opposition to what APOSTLES did, and what scripture SAYS, regardless of whether or not what you do is actually written IN the bible, I have to question YOUR leader and I also have to question YOUR belief system. It’s ONE thing to do something that -isn’t- written in the bible, you see, THAT would be up for debate. But it’s a WHOLE ‘NOTHER STORY when what you do, and what you try to pass off as being “okay”, is SHOWN IN DETAIL as NOT being “okay” in the bible.
If your leader bows DOWN in front of a statue, something Peter (a man we —ALL— AGREE had the Holy Spirit within him) FROWNED upon anyone doing when it came to anyone or thing BUT God, can we not conclude that the Pope does NOT have Holy Spirit within him? If the Holy Spirit was, in fact, within the Pope, would It not urge the Pope to STAND UP, the way Peter made that man STAND UP? Yes, of COURSE It would. Peter was operating from a place of Truth, apparently the same can’t be said about the Pope.
I mean it would be one thing if he (the Pope) only affected himself with such beliefs, but clearly that’s not the case. He affects the MILLIONS and MILLIONS of people following him, because they BELIEVE (just like YOU believe) that what he does is what is noble and true. Well we saw clearly in Luke what the Truth that was WITHIN Peter caused Peter to do, didn’t we? You can’t say, “no!” It’s as CLEAR as DAY that It (the Holy Spirit within Peter) did not for a SECOND (not a SINGLE second) allow a man to follow through with an act meant ONLY for God. THAT, my friend, is TRUTH! If Peter did not allow a man to bow down to him, how could you POSSIBLY think he, HIMSELF, if he were here today, would bow down to a plastic IMAGE of a woman? And you say that the Pope is today’s Peter? WAKE UP!!!
What comes from your mouth is false testimony which has been ingrained in your in your heart as being “true” by those who originally spread these false doctrines. What you say doesn’t come from a place of deep contemplation and prayer on scripture, but rather comes because, as you basically say, the Pope “says it’s truth, so then it MUST be.”
Matthew 23:13:
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.”
Woe to any person or persons or churches who follow suit, for instead of glorifying the Father, you glorify man. Instead of glorifying His word / His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, you glorify man. You make songs about MAN. Bring attention to MAN. Speak about and think about MAN. How about you REPENT from your ways and shine your light on HE who shines His light on you FIRST – bring the spot light BACK on HIM, and AWAY from MAN, as even MARY would suggest you do if she was here in flesh today. Again, this is not HER fault, but YOURS and the Catholic church’s fault for placing her (and Saints) in a higher position or an equal position to God and telling everyone that such a thing is “okay” to do. You, yourselves, are in opposition to what the bible teaches, and now you cause those with earnest hearts wanting to find Truth to wander down a path that was not intended for them wander, which is away from the Light.
1.) You say, “Just so you too are clear, Mary is a created being and in no way above that stature. She is not God and is not to be thought of as more than a HIGHLY FAVORED & BLESSED BEING.”
How many times do I need to say things for you to register them? I’m not speaking to you in real life, so you can’t miss what I say. I don’t get why I need to repeat myself, as if you look up, you’ll see what I’ve written above. Read what I write and understand what I am trying to relay to you. Simply put: I don’t CARE what you SAY, I care WHAT YOU DO. So stop telling me you place God first, when it’s obvious (not by your WORDS) but by your ACTIONS that you do NOT place God first. Your actions point to everyone BUT God. i.e.: Mary, the Saints, etc., while God is there, He is not at the forefront, at His RIGHTFUL position in our hearts and minds. Matthew 22:37
2.) You say, “I’m in communion with the Church I trust was founded by our Lord while on earth and confirmed by the Holy Spirit and you’re not, so our beliefs must differ.”
What needs to take place before you realize that something is wrong? Does the Pope literally have to utter the words, “Mary, OUR GOD” before you say, “Hey, something’s not right here?” I’d bet that even if the Pope DID say such a thing, you would find some ridiculous excuse (as you’ve done with the whole kneeling argument) as to why it’s “okay.” I mean seriously! Satan will not send you a greeting card informing you of WHO he is, all the while kindly warning you that he’s pulling the cover over your eyes. You have to pray for the Holy Spirit to guide you and to open your eyes to that which is True.
You say, “have you ever called Mary blessed?” Well let me ask YOU a question of —actual— importance – as mentioning whether or not Mary is blessed is of NO importance to US —nor— our salvation (as you previously stated): have you ever been in deep prayer BEGGING He which is FORMLESS to indwell you with the Holy Spirit? Have you EVER cared MORE about your eyes being open than what your next meal will be? Have you ever pleaded and cried out to God to show you ONLY that which is true? Or is all your time spent —listening— to a man tell you what he thinks is true? Do you actually have a deep, internal desire to find Truth, or are you speaking from an intellectual stand-point and reciting with your mouth words that don’t truly move your heart?
[I KNOW YOU WON’T, BUT —PLEASE— ANSWER THIS QUESTION]You put your trust in a church because it holds an apostolic title. But what you fail to realize is that man is not infallible. Satan at one point in time held the HIGHEST order ever given to an Angel – he was given things no human could ever DREAM of having, and even —he—, having FREE WILL, chose to go AGAINST God and follow EVIL WAYS.
So I ask you: WHY THEN, can the POPE, or his predecessors, being of the FLESH, and not of the SPIRIT, like LUCIFER, not be capable of swaying from the ultimate Truth and essentially guiding an ENTIRE nation into damnation? Why? Why is that NOT possible? Is the Pope and the Catholic church infallible? Does the Pope (or his predecessors) NOT have free will to choose NOT to accept God’s will – whether intentionally or not? Is he like Jesus? Perfect? In other words, he can ONLY do the will of God? Or is he NOT God, and actually IS capable of turning AWAY from the ORIGINAL apostolic teachings?[I KNOW YOU WON’T, BUT —PLEASE— ANSWER THIS QUESTION]
3.) You say, “You believe that the bible is the sole authority…”
What I believe is that it is ENOUGH to make us into what we need to be (2 Timothy 3:16-17): “…PERFECT, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”
ALL Scripture is God-breathed (again, 2 Timothy 3:16-17). Isaiah 8:20 states: “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak NOT according to this word, it is because there is NO LIGHT IN THEM.” So you see, you speak NOT according to the GOD-BREATHED Word contained within the bible, so the bible says that you have NO light within you, and that would mean you are in DARKNESS. You cannot SEE when you are in the DARK, and thus why you cannot SEE what is being stated to you today. So keep following man’s tradition and keep denying the inspired word of God and see where that leads you.
4.) You say, “Since I believe that the Pope is the current successor to Peter and the appointed supreme authority on matters of faith and morals.”
There’s a WIDE gap of time from the time of Peter to the time of the current Pope. Please refer to question #2 above.
5.) You say, “I trust that when he kneels down and prays in front of a statue of the Blessed Virgin, he is in no way substituting her for God.”
You fail to realize that it does not MATTER whether or not he is substituting her for God. Simply put: the action is meant for God ONLY! Why is that so hard to comprehend????
Also, you think it’s simply about INTENTION? It doesn’t matter WHAT you do, as long as your heart is in the right place? If bowing down is something we should do for God ONLY, as Peter showcased in Luke, then as long as a man falls to the feet of a statue or to the feet of a man and has GOOD intentions, then all is good? Do you HONESTLY think that man that fell to Pete’s feet was substituting Peter for GOD? C’MON!!! Of COURSE he wasn’t. But Peter STILL made him STAND UP!
Such a way of thinking is why there are forty million interpretations of the bible – it’s such a slippery slope to go against what is RIGHT and TRUE.
I’m reminded of a quote from Nikos Kazantzakis:
“I say one thing, you write another, and those who read you understand still something else!”
The whole bowing DOWN to a statue of Mary thing will be MISUNDERSTOOD by THOUSANDS, if not MILLIONS of people following the Pope. He does ONE thing, and others take it as meaning something COMPLETELY different. It’s one thing if people don’t “get” Truth when Truth is ACTUALLY spoken or ACTED OUT, but to speak or act out falsehood, all the while misguiding people, now that is a totally different ball game.
6.) You say, “…the bible didn’t exist at the earliest moments of Christianity but the Apostles did and that is where our Lord placed the authority to baptize and teach His truth.”
God surely understands men. There is a REASON why the bible was written and why it is INSPIRED and GOD-BREATHED (2 Timothy 3:16-17). IF man was capable of relaying all that God wanted, WHY then would we have a NEED for the Word to be DOCUMENTED on PAPER? Tell me! Why? I’ll tell you why: We would have —NO REASON— for a BOOK if man was FULLY capable of relaying such information WITHOUT wavering. You see, God KNOWS that man is easily swayed from Truth. So would it be wise for God to COMPLETELY entrust His word and what He wanted us to know ONLY in the hands of men, ONLY via word of mouth? No, of course not. People will ALWAYS turn away from God, I would think that’s fairly obvious.
So I ask you: Is looking upon that which the fallible Pope (a MAN) does as being 100% truth a wise decision on YOUR part? Is he (or his predecessors) INCAPABLE of SWAYING from the ORIGINAL teachings of the early apostolic church? Now that I answered the ONE question I didn’t answer before, let’s see if you’ll finally answer the SEVERAL questions that I asked you earlier that you did not answer, and the questions I asked above.
Oh, boy. How did I miss this doozy:
“the Catholic Church possesses the fullness of that Truth, you do not and likely never will and for God’s own purpose, that has been permitted to happen..”
To know what is “likely” to come – could this man possibly be a prophet? Or is it more likely that, when someone gets called out in a debate, and they fail to prove that which was asked of them, they resort to claims that the other person doesn’t have the “truth” within them, because their ego has been bruised. Hmmm…I wonder if that’s what happened.
How about this: instead of telling me I don’t have Truth within me, why don’t you PROVE such is the case? You haven’t done that. Your full of completely empty claims. Can you do what you have not done thus far and ATTEMPT to prove at least ONE of the things you claim?
Oh Lord have mercy! This has resulted to name calling!
Anthony, Matthew 5:10-12 NKJV
Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Be blessed Anthony, Rejoice! I hope you realise that the verses quoted are what’s happening to you. .
John 5:39-44 NLT
“You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! Yet you refuse to come to me to receive this life.
“Your approval means nothing to me, because I know you don’t have God’s love within you. For I have come to you in my Father’s name, and you have rejected me. Yet if others come in their own name, you gladly welcome them. No wonder you can’t believe! For you gladly honor each other, but you don’t care about the honor that comes from the one who alone is God.
The scripture points to JESUS, while CATHOLICS point to MARY. Don’t disvalue Scripture in your attempt at a straw-man argument, Josh. That verse has nothing to do with what we’re speaking of.
or how would you explain..Hebrews 11:1-40 NLT
Faith is the confidence that what we hope for will actually happen; it gives us assurance about things we cannot see. Through their faith, the people in days of old earned a good reputation.
By faith we understand that the entire universe was formed at God’s command, that what we now see did not come from anything that can be seen.
It was by faith that Abel brought a more acceptable offering to God than Cain did. Abel’s offering gave evidence that he was a righteous man, and God showed his approval of his gifts. Although Abel is long dead, he still speaks to us by his example of faith.
It was by faith that Enoch was taken up to heaven without dying—“he disappeared, because God took him.” For before he was taken up, he was known as a person who pleased God. And it is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him.
It was by faith that Noah built a large boat to save his family from the flood. He obeyed God, who warned him about things that had never happened before. By his faith Noah condemned the rest of the world, and he received the righteousness that comes by faith.
It was by faith that Abraham obeyed when God called him to leave home and go to another land that God would give him as his inheritance. He went without knowing where he was going. And even when he reached the land God promised him, he lived there by faith—for he was like a foreigner, living in tents. And so did Isaac and Jacob, who inherited the same promise. Abraham was confidently looking forward to a city with eternal foundations, a city designed and built by God.
It was by faith that even Sarah was able to have a child, though she was barren and was too old. She believed that God would keep his promise. And so a whole nation came from this one man who was as good as dead—a nation with so many people that, like the stars in the sky and the sand on the seashore, there is no way to count them.
All these people died still believing what God had promised them. They did not receive what was promised, but they saw it all from a distance and welcomed it. They agreed that they were foreigners and nomads here on earth. Obviously people who say such things are looking forward to a country they can call their own. If they had longed for the country they came from, they could have gone back. But they were looking for a better place, a heavenly homeland. That is why God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
It was by faith that Abraham offered Isaac as a sacrifice when God was testing him. Abraham, who had received God’s promises, was ready to sacrifice his only son, Isaac, even though God had told him, “Isaac is the son through whom your descendants will be counted.” Abraham reasoned that if Isaac died, God was able to bring him back to life again. And in a sense, Abraham did receive his son back from the dead.
It was by faith that Isaac promised blessings for the future to his sons, Jacob and Esau.
It was by faith that Jacob, when he was old and dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons and bowed in worship as he leaned on his staff.
It was by faith that Joseph, when he was about to die, said confidently that the people of Israel would leave Egypt. He even commanded them to take his bones with them when they left.
It was by faith that Moses’ parents hid him for three months when he was born. They saw that God had given them an unusual child, and they were not afraid to disobey the king’s command.
It was by faith that Moses, when he grew up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. He chose to share the oppression of God’s people instead of enjoying the fleeting pleasures of sin. He thought it was better to suffer for the sake of Christ than to own the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking ahead to his great reward. It was by faith that Moses left the land of Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger. He kept right on going because he kept his eyes on the one who is invisible. It was by faith that Moses commanded the people of Israel to keep the Passover and to sprinkle blood on the doorposts so that the angel of death would not kill their firstborn sons.
It was by faith that the people of Israel went right through the Red Sea as though they were on dry ground. But when the Egyptians tried to follow, they were all drowned.
It was by faith that the people of Israel marched around Jericho for seven days, and the walls came crashing down.
It was by faith that Rahab the prostitute was not destroyed with the people in her city who refused to obey God. For she had given a friendly welcome to the spies.
How much more do I need to say? It would take too long to recount the stories of the faith of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, and all the prophets. By faith these people overthrew kingdoms, ruled with justice, and received what God had promised them. They shut the mouths of lions, quenched the flames of fire, and escaped death by the edge of the sword. Their weakness was turned to strength. They became strong in battle and put whole armies to flight. Women received their loved ones back again from death.
But others were tortured, refusing to turn from God in order to be set free. They placed their hope in a better life after the resurrection. Some were jeered at, and their backs were cut open with whips. Others were chained in prisons. Some died by stoning, some were sawed in half, and others were killed with the sword. Some went about wearing skins of sheep and goats, destitute and oppressed and mistreated. They were too good for this world, wandering over deserts and mountains, hiding in caves and holes in the ground.
All these people earned a good reputation because of their faith, yet none of them received all that God had promised. For God had something better in mind for us, so that they would not reach perfection without us.
Luke 7:43-50 NLT
Simon answered, “I suppose the one for whom he canceled the larger debt.”
“That’s right,” Jesus said. Then he turned to the woman and said to Simon, “Look at this woman kneeling here. When I entered your home, you didn’t offer me water to wash the dust from my feet, but she has washed them with her tears and wiped them with her hair. You didn’t greet me with a kiss, but from the time I first came in, she has not stopped kissing my feet. You neglected the courtesy of olive oil to anoint my head, but she has anointed my feet with rare perfume.
“I tell you, her sins—and they are many—have been forgiven, so she has shown me much love. But a person who is forgiven little shows only little love.” Then Jesus said to the woman, “Your sins are forgiven.”
The men at the table said among themselves, “Who is this man, that goes around forgiving sins?”
And Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”
Basic Christianity teaches that people in heaven are alive, not dead.
Jesus is our one and only mediator. Intercession is different.
“Teach us how to pray,” the disciples said to Jesus. (Luke 11, 1)
Jesus answered by teaching them the prayer we call the Our Father or The Lord’s Prayer.
Our Father, who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy Kingdom come,
thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Give US this day OUR daily bread.
Forgive US OUR trespasses,
as WE forgive those who trespass against US.
And lead US not into temptation,
but deliver US from evil.
The entire second part of the Lord’s prayer is intercessory prayer where we pray for ourselves and others (us, we, and our).
Christians praying for each other and the world is intercessory prayer and is accepted and practiced by all Christan denominations (that I know about).
Before Jesus Christ died for our sins and opened the gates of heaven there were no saints in heaven. Therefore there are no Old Testament writings that would mention them.
Very few of the new Christians died before most of the New Testament was written. Therefore there is little in the Bible about asking saints to pray for us.
However the last book of the Bible does talk about the saints in heaven praying.
Revelation 5:8: Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.
Revelation 8:3-4: He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne. The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel.
The Holy Spirit guided the early Church in many things not explained in the Bible including how does the Body of Christ (believers) living on Earth relate to the Body of Christ (saints) living in heaven. We are still one Body.
Catholics share the belief in the Communion of Saints with many other Christians, including the Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, Episcopal, and Methodist Churches.
The Communion of Saints is the belief where all saints are intimately related in the Body of Christ, a family. When you die and go to heaven, you do not leave this family.
Everyone in heaven or on their way to heaven are saints, you, me, my deceased grandmother, Mary the mother of Jesus, Mother Teresa and Pope John Paul II.
As part of this family, you may ask your family and friends living here on earth to pray for you. Or, you may also ask the Blessed Virgin Mary, Saint Andrew, or your deceased grandmother living in heaven to pray for you.
Prayer to saints in heaven is simple communication, not worship.
Asking others to pray for you whether your loved ones on Earth or your loved ones in heaven is always optional.
For more information, see the Catechism of the Catholic Church, section 946 and following: http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/index.cfm
With love in Christ.
REFERENCE: https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100521201122AATAuSE
Dear Brothers & Sisters, please delve into the Holy Word of God, and consider what our Lord Jesus said in rebuking the devil when being tempted by him to turn the stone into bread: “It is written, “Man shall not live by bread alone, but BY EVERY WORD that proceedeth out of the mouth of GOD.” (Matthew 4:4) Jesus Christ drew from the Scriptures in Deuteronomy 8:3 to combat Satan in this instance. The emphasis here is manifold especially when one realizes the spiritual symbolism and parabolic imagery associated with our Lord’s words. However, this is not my point. My point is in the literal sense in which Jesus reiterates those words spoken to the Israelites after being led out of Egypt and given God’s Law. As such the emphasis is on EVERY WORD that comes from the mouth of God. If you are truly reborn in Jesus our Christ then you must accept the Holy Bible as the inadvertant Truth, unadulterated, inerrant Word of God (not going to get into various translations b/c gets too deep in the weeds; plus you have to rely on the guidance and counsel of the Spirit of Christ to lead you through such decisions as to which, if any, of the various versions of God’s Word have been diluted to the point of no longer being the Word of God that we are required to believe as Truth).
At any rate, you should not pray to dead saints for many reasons not the least of which is because they are DEAD! Or, as our Lord stated during his ministry when referring to someone who had died: “She is only sleeping.” A dead or “sleeping” saint who is in Christ enters into the Kingdom of God at the coming of Christ. Until then, they ‘sleep’, have no conciousness, and most certainly are NOT in heaven. You cannot find anywhere in the Word of God that says you go to heaven immediately after you die. That’s because it is NOT there. The soul returns to God, yes, but the soul apart from the body has no conciousness. This is why Paul says all of creation travails until the coming of Christ to learn who we are, who the sons (and daughters) of God truly are. The belief that our dearly departed are in heaven looking down upon us is false and a lie of our enemy. It came from false teachings and traditions of man…not God.
If you believe this then you do not accurately believe in the resurrection of the dead in Christ at His coming unto complete salvation and unto the new glorified body…just as it was with our Lord Jesus when God raised Him 3 days after His crucifixion. Therefore, you will be lost either to the second resurrection which occurs after the Millennial (1000 year) Reign on earth of Jesus Christ or lost forever. You cannot experience that which you do not believe in! That’s the whole basis of “Christ in us – the hope of glory”. This is the theme of the entire Bible! But it’s best explained by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15. Also see Peter’s sermon on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:29) in this verse he clearly states that king David is still dead in his grave waiting for the resurrection of the dead unto Christ…King David nor anyone else have yet to arrive in heaven or the Kingdom of God our Father.
So, are you saying we shouldn’t talk to the dead? What happens if this is done?
God jesus and the holy spirit is one I know according to the bible that praying to the saints is wrong cuz it say I am the way the truth and the light no man commeth to the father but thru me the bible is talking about jesus I read one comment saying that diffrent people interpet the scriptures diffrently that is true but if it contridicts the word of god then it is not from the holy spirit but of the world I believe that cathlics shouldnt be labled as christians becuz they pray to the saints for example there are sum religions that belive in jesus but that doesnt make them christian what makes them christian is that they follow the teachings of jesus and have a personal relationship with him that is where the catholics are lacking if they had a personal relationship with jesus and was lead by the holy spirit they would know that praying to the saints is wrong cuz jesus God and the holy spirit are one and the same and if jesus says to pray to him why are people praying to the saints it is becuz they were not lead by the holy spirit becuz the holy spirit is one with God why would the holy spirit say pray to the saints and jesus says to pray to him it doesnt make sense cuz jesus and god and the holy spirit are one the same that is why it is important to check with the word of God and if it contridicts the word it is not from god it is from the world or a lie of satan hopes this helps I hope it helps me too im only 18 and not livin right right now if u can pray for me that be great I need it 🙂
Corey, lots to think about here!
In John’s Gospel, chapter 6, versus 48-59 are explicit words that inform all who will listen and believe, that Jesus’ Flesh and Blood are to be consumed by His followers. Many of the disciples who heard these words could not accept them and left but when he turned to His Apostles and asked them if they too wanted to leave, it was Peter who said ” to whom should we turn, you have the words of eternal life”?
Jesus didn’t say to those who did leave, wait, you misunderstood me and he didn’t say he was speaking in a parable and then explain the real meaning. Christ said what He meant and meant what He said, and it is true for every generation.
So how is it possible for any of us to eat our Lord’s Flesh and drink His Blood when he hasn’t been physically present for 2,000 years? The answer to that is found in the Gospels when they describe the last supper, in which our Lord instructed the Apostles on how to bring about this miracle by saying the words He said and by the power and authority he gave to each of them.
From the time of the Apostles and continuing until the end of time, those men who have been ordained by a Bishop who himself was ordained by a Bishop in a line of succession going back to the original 12 less Judas Iscariot, have the authority and power to transubstantiate ( change )
bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ in exactly the same manner our Lord did at His last supper.
And so this morning at Mass, I received the Body and Blood of Christ, as I do nearly every day I’m not required to work early. It’s hard to imagine a more personal relationship than that.
Corey, reread John’s Gospel, chapter 6 in it’s entirety and see if the Holy Spirit won’t help you to come to an understanding of how important our Lord’s instruction is regarding the miracle of the changing of bread and wine into our Lord’s Body and Blood.
Actually, the first miracle at Cana and the feeding of the multitudes also point to and are miracles leading up to the possibility that the entire world could be nourished spiritually by His Body and Blood, every day until our Lord comes again.
In the Catholic Church we have an authority to determine when error is being professed as truth, it’s the men who succeeded Peter and the Apostles. If you study closely the Acts of the Apostles you will note that when heresy ( false doctrines ) were being spread about to the newly baptized Christians, it was the Apostles and their successors who, with the authority given them by Jesus, rejected some teachings as false and professed others as being true.
Until the 16th century and Martin Luther’s break away from the Catholic Church, this authority to teach the Truth regarding Christ’s life and teachings, was never in question. In his break from the Church it was Luther who made the determination that the bible was the sole authority in matters of faith and morals, but who gave Luther the authority to make such a claim? Were you aware that Martin Luther was an Augustinian priest in the Catholic Church and when his pleas for reform within the Church was rejected by the Pope and their personal differences led to Luther being excommunicated, he formulated his own doctrines?
Were you also aware that during the time of our Lord and Savior, there were two sacred canons
( list of books considered inspired and revealed by God through His prophets ) for the Jews?
The one canon was being used was in Hebrew and the other in Greek. Scripture scholars acknowledge that most of the quotes attributed to having been made by Jesus, are from the septuagint, which contained and still contain the books that Protestants refer to as apocryphal but Catholics and Eastern Orthodox term dutero canonical ( which should be translated as an additional list or second list but not in any way uninspired or revealed by God ). In these books, you will read about praying for the dead; the First and Second Maccabees are the best example.
In this canon they are listed under historical books.
The question one must ask oneself is why our Lord quoted so often from the canon accepted by the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Churches but rejected by the Protestant Church and the Jews who rejected Christ then and reject Him now? Unless it was helpful in promoting the doctrines that one group wanted to use to distance that group from the teachings of the Apostles and their successors.
You do realize that it was the Apostles who wrote most of the New Testament and their successors or disciples if you will. And it was this group of priests, with the successor to Peter as their head, that actually created the canon of scriptures and for nearly twelve centuries went unchallenged until Luther and likeminded Christians broke away from the Church our Lord founded and Blessed before His death and resurrection and the subsequent coming of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles and our Blessed Mother at Pentecost.
Lastly, don’t you find it peculiar that within the bible itself, there is no explicit statement saying that the bible is the sole authority but the scriptures themselves are explicit when we hear the words of our Lord when he gave authority to the Apostles to bind and loose sin and to Peter when our Lord handed him the keys to the kingdom and that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church our Lord founded and handed to Peter and his successors, ever!
As far as your belief that Catholics do not have a personal relationship with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, you should not believe everything you hear; I’m Catholic and my relationship with our Lord is very personal, after all, it was through His life, death and resurrection that I have the possibility of eternal bliss in His Presence and that of His Father, the Holy Spirit and all of the Angels and Saints who continuously sing His praise. You might very well be shocked to discover that great numbers of Catholics have a very deep, profound and personal relationship with the Most Holy Name of Jesus Christ.
May God bless you in every way possible, may he protect you and your family, always, and may you live in the Truth.
John
I am Catholic, but I don’t go to church every sunday. Most people there are not worshipping in truth but I’m not telling all. Instead of hearing the teachings of priests in the church, I study by my own reading God’s words everyday and listening to any Christian religions’ devotions. The religion is not important to me as long as I am Christian and I follow Christ Jesus teachings. Kneeling down to any statues, images or even inside in the church makes me feel nervous or uncomfortable even though my focus is God. Coz I believe that God is everywhere and omnipresent. I realized it’s not right to celebrate Christmas coz it was not stated in the bible the date of Jesus’ birth. But Jesus is already a God and not anymr a human.
“2 Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.”
Jesus came to the Earth to give SIGHT to those who cannot see and not to give peace but the sword, -that simply means we should not be blind, the knowlege of his teachings is the sword to give us sight. I hope I did not offend any Catholics here but I wanna say that it’s not right to pray to the Saints or ask them to pray to us. Talking about the statues like the Black Nazarene, Sto. Nino and etc giving us a lot of miracles might be done only by Satan. Satan mybe is happy that we worship them so he makes a lot of miracles for us to continue worshipping them. We can never say that Christ is living in the statue that whoever will touch the statue will be healed. He didn’t say these things. Christ is around. And about Paul, many of his teachings are contradict to Jesus’, so who should we follow, ofcourse our God Jesus. Do not be deceived. Faith is the most important but contradicting God’s words might offend Him and can be considered sins in His eyes
Ofcourse God’s love is unfailing and even if we’re sinners His love for us never fails. If we draw near to Him, He’ll draw near to us and if we seek Him, we shall find. That are His promises right? But that doesn’t mean we wont listen to His words like do not commit idolatry. This is sin, we know that. Praying to the statues, dead saints or whatever that contradict His words- are wrong. God is patient for our sake so maybe he’s waiting for us to stop all these things. Let’s not argue about this, iit’s up to them who’s teachings they’ll believe. We will know in God’s judgment.
dear bro.anthony,it is really great with so much of knowledge on bible with your own misinterpretations. we are no one to talk about mother mary since lord
has chosen her to be the mother of jesus. Further pl. note that your name is of a dead saint.God bless you.
Deselva, thank you for the blessings, same to you, but it is you that has misunderstood, not me. But just to place it on the table, tell me: what is it that I misunderstand?
Also, when you say “talk about”, what does that mean exactly? Surely you don’t mean when I speak of how God is the only One without sin? Is that what I’ve misinterpreted? When the bible says there is only “One that is good”, does it really means “two?” It isn’t when I say that Jesus is the Truth and the Way and the Light, and not Mary and that it’s through Jesus that we are saved, not through Mary. Is that what you say I have misinterpreted? If so, please explain how I’ve misinterpreted such a thing.
When you agree that your salvation is through Mary, and I direct the attention to our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, of which our salvation is to come through, you take that to mean what exactly? You assume me saying such a thing is an insult? How? How could stating that a woman is obviously highly favored by God, and at the same time, showing you that she is not God, imply disrespect? You look through a distorted lens and you will find a distorted image. I have said nothing wrong. Neither have I “talked about” Mary in a disrespectful way, but deifying her, without coming right out and saying such a thing, but rather doing so and so very obviously denying that you do, is not going to sit right with many, including myself. Take that for what it is, but what it isn’t, is an insult.
@*anthony* – you have just had * *yer hide whipped real gud ** (multible times) by the Truth Of God’s Word and The Holy Spirit – through John ..
You can’t argue with the Truth Of The Lord God. Your “argument” lacks in anything from God’s word . Catholicism defiantly goes against The Holy Bible. How can you justify this??? You can’t. .. you can only twist nip and distort the Truth .
You don’t have respect for God when you disobey HIS Commandments. All of us areally guilty of breaking them. We don’t ask Mary to forgive us though – we don’t need to confess it to a priest or minister – we go DIRECTLY TO THE HEAVENLY FATHER JESUS CHRIST THE HOLY SPIRIT and we pray for forgiveness – we take out sins to God and we pray to God to forgive us. Not Mary or any Saint or graven images or pieces of some sort called saints body. …
Jesus wants you to come to Him anthony. Seriously – He really does and He will let you know in His own time /in His way…I have much to learn from Jesus for I am no better than any sinner and i personally have much to learn and be forgiven for… God Bless everyone – keep The Faith In Him x
Biblical belief:
Acts 16:30-31″
“30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, WHAT must I do to be SAVED?”
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
Never, ever, ever a mention of Mary. Ever! Expect by Catholics.
Catholic belief:
“None, O Mother of God, obtains salvation except through thee, none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee.” (Leo XIII: Adiutricem populi, September 5, 1895) — [p. 19, no. 44]
For the edification of anyone reading these posts, Anthony is most assuredly correct when he points out that Mary is not God; how could she be, she was created by God and therefore she is a creature with a beginning and end, she is not God.
Rather than taking the word of a person or people who are not Catholic and mostly know what they have heard or been taught, let me, a practicing Catholic inform you about what the Catholic Church teaches about Mary. But first you will need to appreciate the Church’s position on teaching doctrine; that which Catholics are bound to profess as part of their faith if they are to remain in full communion with this world wide Church. The Church teaches the divinely revealed Truth about the life and teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ from three branches of authority; it teaches from the authority of the Apostolic Church ( the Apostles and their line of successors )
it teaches from the authority of the Papacy ( the leader of the Church chosen by Christ Himself and Peter’s successors ) and it teaches from the Bible, the Sacred Scriptures as canonized by the Catholic Church in the early centuries of Christianity. The first two authorities are explicitly mentioned in Sacred Scripture which we know from history, came after the apostles and Peter who went about the world baptizing new Christians in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, just as they were commanded to do at the end of John’s gospel, which was written at least four decades after the fact. Once a person is able to come to an understanding of how and why the Catholic Church draws it’s doctrines from three legitimate sources, one can then begin to understand how the Church professes truths about Mary, not explicit in the Bible.
There are three doctrines concerning Mary that the Church holds to be the divinely inspired truth regarding Mary; First, she is the mother of God, not the woman who gave birth to the Most Holy and Blessed Trinity which has no beginning or end but she cooperated in becoming the Ark of the new and everlasting covenant, Jesus Christ. Since the Church has always taught that the Messiah is fully human ( but without sin ) and He is fully divine ( God ), Mary cannot be the mother of the human Jesus but not the mother of the divine Jesus, because the two natures are not separate but fully united. Next, drawing from the totality of scripture and the references in both the Old and New Testaments, the Apostolic Church teaches that Mary was conceived without sin. If you think about this at any length, you begin to appreciate the real unlikelihood that the Holy Spirit would have overshadowed and our Lord would have entered the womb of a woman with original sin or any sin, great or small. And lastly, the Church teaches that Mary was assumed into Heaven, body and soul, meaning that her physical body was glorified by God and never suffered corruption the way Eve and all her offspring did.
If Catholics were forced to point to one or more verses in the Bible to substantiate these professions, they couldn’t, but they aren’t forced to limit their divinely revealed beliefs to only Sacred Scripture because they have the testimony of the Apostles, Peter, and their successors, to draw from.
We can go back and forth with the ” where in the Bible does it say that ” contest but since we as Christians with different perspectives on how divine truth has been revealed by God, we can never come to a total agreement. We have the reformation of the 16th century to blame for that sad reality.
In finishing, we don’t worship Mary but we do seek her prayers and intercession and through her Immaculate Heart, we hope to enter into the Sacred Heart of Jesus. You will say that is unnecessary, we believe otherwise and upon our individual deaths and the final judgement, we will all find out who had the better information, the full Truth.
“the Apostolic Church teaches that Mary was conceived without sin.”
THIS is what we’re debating. This is what contradicts what the bible teaches. I don’t know how, why, or when it happened, but it is written that only GOD is without sin. Mary called God her SAVIOR? Tell me: WHAT exactly did she need God to save her from? Will you answer this question for me? Of course not.
Also, you go on to say, “you begin to appreciate the real unlikelihood that the Holy Spirit would have overshadowed and our Lord would have entered the womb of a woman with original sin or any sin, great or small.”
So then by YOUR logic, NO MAN ON EARTH can have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, because we are all sinners? By your logic, one must be a NON SINNER to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?
You say, “If Catholics were forced to point to one or more verses in the Bible to substantiate these professions, they couldn’t, but they aren’t forced to limit their divinely revealed beliefs to only Sacred Scripture because they have the testimony of the Apostles, Peter, and their successors, to draw from.”
John, what you fail to understand over and over again is this. Our disagreement is NOT (please understand this) because what you say is NOT in the bible, it’s because what you claim is in DIRECT OPPOSITION to that which is stated in the bible. Do you get that? It would be one thing if NO WHERE in the bible was it written that only ONE is good and without sin, then you could say, “Mary is without sin” and no one could open their mouths, because we simply wouldn’t know, but that is NOT THE CASE, we DO know, it’s written!
You say, “We can go back and forth with the ” where in the Bible does it say that”
Again, try to follow what we are NOT saying that. Please.
You say, “In finishing, we don’t worship Mary but we do seek her prayers and intercession and through her Immaculate Heart”
Again, you say one thing, but do another.
2 Corinthians 11:3, 4:
“3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.”
“In Christ.” Like I said above, Satan is a deceiver, but what he has mastered, is the art of subtlety. What you are doing is attempting to sway attention from obvious worship status that you’ve placed on Mary. Whether intentional or not, only God knows.
“NONE obtains salvation except through”…MARY? Really? What more needs to be said? This is the core of Catholic belief. No one has come out and directly stated that, “MARY IS GOD”, but how much more obvious can it be that you think of her as such?
How many times have people been saved SIMPLY (yes, SIMPLY) by believing in JESUS, our SAVIOR? How many times? Many were saved THEN by believing ONLY in Jesus and MANY will be saved TODAY by believing ONLY in Jesus. God doesn’t change, men change. Which is why Catholics believe that our salvation is —strictly— through Mary? And that (get this) “NONE” receives salvation but through HER.
Amazing!
Anthony says:
January 17, 2012 at 12:36 pm
Biblical belief:
Acts 16:30-31″
“30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, WHAT must I do to be SAVED?”
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
Never, ever, ever a mention of Mary. Ever! Expect by Catholics. E
Catholic belief:
“None, O Mother of God, obtains salvation except through thee, none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee.” (Leo XIII: Adiutricem populi, September 5, 1895) — [p. 19, no. 44]
What you have quoted is in no way a doctrine of the Catholic Church and no Catholic is required in even the smallest way to accept these words as divinely revealed, in order that one may achieve eternal salvation. It may in fact have some merit and it may in fact turn out to be a spiritual reality that is in and of itself a mystery, but Protestants should know what the term infallible means when attached to the teachings of a Pope. What is meant is that when it comes to matters of faith ( that which you must believe to work out your salvation, as supported by the testimony of the Apostles who wrote the New Testament ) and morals, the way Christ instructed, first His Apostles and then all Christians, to live out their human existence, that Pope and those Apostles who agree on such a teaching are divinely inspired by the Holy Spirit, the same Holy Spirit that came upon them at Pentecost, and therefore the teaching is without error, because of the Holy Spirit. Once a Pope speaks about any matter that doesn’t involve faith and morals, he is on his own and his words are not binding in any way. But you should also know that the Pope doesn’t work in a vacuum or on his own, even and especially in matters of doctrine, he works with the See of bishops, the successors to the Apostles.
John, YOU, yourself, stated SEVERAL times that your salvation is “through Mary.” Are you really going to make me go to the first page and copy & paste each and every time you said it? C’mon! Quit back peddling.
Please do just that because I have never believed that salvation comes from anything other than our Lord Jesus Christ.
I’m interested to review the way I stated things in previous posts.
Thank you
John, these are your quotes:
“the role Mary plays in salvation history.”
“There are three very important Catholic teachings that are a tremendous benefit to souls working out their salvation; The role Mary plays in salvation history as the protectress of the believers”
Who knows what else you posted, and how many times, but I’m not going through ever single statement you made, as your belief is quite obvious.
You’re going to say that she simply plays a “role”, but the picture the Catholic church paints is that of an extremely important role. It is THROUGH her (no catholic would deny this, but all of a sudden you do?) that you GET to Jesus. I will find credible sources that state such is the case and will post them when I do.
In the meantime, perhaps you can touch on my last post on the first page? There were a few important questions I’d like you to answer for me.
To Anthony:
Again, you have been given some terribly wrong information. And again, the truth about what Catholics believe is in the Catechism and you will discover just how wrong the notion is that Mary is in any way God or our means of salvation. Another proof of what I’m saying is the Mass, the highest and most perfect form of public worship contained in the Catholic Church. If you are not afraid of becoming possessed by the devil, sit in on a Mass and listen to the words of the prayers and then report back on the importance placed on Mary in this divine worship as compared to our Lord Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit and above all, God the Father. No one who comes away from a Mass would become confused about Who is worshipped and why.
Amazing!
You say, “That’s not what I said or meant, because I was not speaking about any man’s ability to have the Holy Spirit dwell in him or her, I was referring only to the Son Of God, the second person of the Holy Trinity and the logical thought the He who was without sin would not have been born into sin! Hope that is more clear.”
It’s not clear, no. How theologians break it down, and whether original sin is from man, and thus why Jesus being born only of a woman is why he was not born “into” sin is something I do not know nor is it any of my concern. Regardless of the science behind how it is explained, what I, and many others, will not accept is this: Any man besides God being without sin. I don’t care why you would give her attributes that only God has, the bottom line is that they are HIS very specific attributes, and not man’s. To say anyone besides God is without sin is man-made doctrine. Doctrine that (this is what’s important here) goes AGAINST scripture.
“Here is what I get, if it’s not in the Bible, God can’t do it.”
You see, you DON’T get it. This is what I am saying: If God says ONE, and you say TWO, who is right? God says only ONE is without sin, and you say TWO are without sin: God and Mary. Who is right? God or man? You keep going to back to things that are not in the bible, and I’m trying hard to focus your attention on that which is actually IN the bible.
“If He decided that for His own purpose and pleasure, he wanted the Blessed Mother to speak to his people and warn them of present dangers and the protection God has now chosen to offer His people”
I don’t know where these visions come from, but you sway from the point. What we’re discussing is whether or not Mary is without sin. The bible says ALL fall short of the glory of God, and you say, “…ALL but ONE.” You are going AGAINST what GOD said.
“This is a very clever means to ending such a discussion. If it’s not in the Bible, it’s satanic, end of discussion.”
I can’t keep doing this over and over again – you’re going to have to figure out what I’m saying here, John.
In John 21:25, it states:
“25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.”
So obviously JUST because it’s not IN the bible, doesn’t mean it’s wrong or an incorrect teaching. But if something actually IS in the bible, and you go —against— such a teaching, then THIS is what you need to focus on. This is what I’m telling you the Catholic church (yourself, included) is doing.
“It is you who continue to ignore the fact that the Bible came AFTER”
It doesn’t matter WHEN the bible “came” to be, it points to a Truth that always WAS, IS, and always WILL BE. So when I use that time-LESS Truth to shine a light on that which is not true, you claim what I say is false? If so, you claim what God says is false, as what I speak are not MY words, but God’s.
Anthony,
Salvation history is ongoing and will continue until the end of time. Whether you choose to believe this or not, we are all working out our own salvation and assisting others in theirs. Just because our Lord made it possible to enter into heaven does not mean that we are not required to follow his instructions on how to live Holy lives, starting with the two greatest commandments and the beatitudes. Salvation was made POSSIBLE but requires obedience to the commands of God. Otherwise, what would have been the purpose of all the parables about being ready at all times for the coming of the Lord, or the admonition to use your talents to their fullest or the reality that if you do not feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, visit the such and imprisoned, you will have not done it to our Lord and He will tell you to leave His sight for He does not know you. That my friend in Christ is working out your salvation in cooperation and obedience to Jesus, our Lord.
So rather than saying Mary is our salvation, I am saying that since she did perfectly the will of God as the mother of Christ, she, like us, does have a roll in salvation history and based on the appearances she has made throughout the world, it would appear that her role is much larger than you are willing to accept. The messages all say that God has given her the high honor of being able to cast her mantle of protection against evil, over any and all who desire her aid. That is not to say that those who don’t are damned but rather she provides a path possessing less spiritual danger.
Christ IS THE WAY AND THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE AND ONLY THOSE WHO COME THROUGH AND WITH HIM WILL BE PERMITTED ENTRY INTO HEAVEN, but that is not to say that Mary, his mother
is not permitted to lead souls to her son.
Hope that helps to clarify the role Mary plays in the salvation history as it continues to unfold versus the definitive plan of God the Father, which required that His Son would be the paschal lamb that restored the relationship between Himself and His creation after it was severed, due to the sins of our first parents. The relationship was repaired by the Blood of the lamb but must be nurtured and made Holy by our obedience to His commands.
Anthony says:
So obviously JUST because it’s not IN the bible, doesn’t mean it’s wrong or an incorrect teaching. But if something actually IS in the bible, and you go —against— such a teaching, then THIS is what you need to focus on. This is what I’m telling you the Catholic church (yourself, included) is doing. End of Quote
Fair enough, let’s focus on chapter 6 of John’s Gospel
Anthony states:
It doesn’t matter WHEN the bible “came” to be, it points to a Truth that always WAS, IS, and always WILL BE. So when I use that time-LESS Truth to shine a light on that which is not true, you claim what I say is false? If so, you claim what God says is false, as what I speak are not MY words, but God’s. End of quote
Ok, what does God have to say about His Apostles and Peter, both in the Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles?
Great. Now we’re on the same page.
As for John 6, the Gospels and Acts, let’s not start with the ambiguity: what is your point?
Anthony states:
It doesn’t matter WHEN the bible “came” to be, it points to a Truth that always WAS, IS, and always WILL BE. So when I use that time-LESS Truth to shine a light on that which is not true, you claim what I say is false? If so, you claim what God says is false, as what I speak are not MY words, but God’s. End of quote
It may not matter to you but I’ll bet it meant a great deal to the Christians of the first and second and possibly even third centuries. The only way they would have known about Jesus and His teachings would have been through the spoken and written words of the Apostles, their disciples and their successors. The Apostles lived with Christ, learned from Him and baptized in His name and were the nucleus of what was to be Christianity. Their teachings which would have been predominantly verbal at first and later were put to writing, was the means for discovering the truth about God, His Son and the Holy Spirit. So I disagree vehemently that it doesn’t matter when the Bible was written when thought of in the context that it is the sole authority in matters of faith and morals.
Anthony says:
January 17, 2012 at 2:50 pm
Great. Now we’re on the same page.
As for John 6, the Gospels and Acts, let’s not start with the ambiguity: what is your point?
Assuming you are serious, my point is that you refer to the middle sentence of the three you wrote and tell me how the Protestant understanding of the command that only those who ” eat His flesh and drink His blood” have life in them versus the Catholic teaching and practice of the real Presence of the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ after the priest prays the prayers of consecration over the bread and wine, as our Lord did at the Last Supper, when he instructed them to do this in memory of Him. In other words, why is the Catholic Church wrong to take these words from scripture literally and the Protestant Church correct to explain these words away as not possible?
You say, “It may not matter to you but I’ll bet it meant a great deal to the Christians of the first and second and possibly even third centuries.”
“It?” It’s not the BIBLE that I say doesn’t matter, it’s WHEN it was written that doesn’t matter. Why would WHEN it was written matter to anyone? It wouldn’t. The only thing that would matter is that it was WRITTEN.
Not to mention the ONLY reason I brought it up was because you keep trying to dismiss what the bible says over and over and over again due to the fact that at “ONE POINT IN TIME, it had not yet been written.” That which was written AFTER, was due to what was believed BEFORE. What was believed BEFORE, was this: That there is only ONE without sin. What is being taught TODAY, is that such a teaching is untrue.
So why in the world, in your mind, you would think when it was written would matter, is far, far beyond me. Having said that, please don’t twist my words. You have misunderstood much of what I’ve said, and this you have misunderstood also.
You say, “and tell me how the Protestant understanding of the command that only those who ” eat His flesh and drink His blood” have life in them versus the Catholic teaching and practice of the real Presence of the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ after the priest prays the prayers of consecration over the bread and wine, as our Lord did at the Last Supper, when he instructed them to do this in memory of Him. In other words, why is the Catholic Church wrong to take these words from scripture literally and the Protestant Church correct to explain these words away as not possible?”
What does any of what you’ve written above have to do with what we’re speaking about? I can see absoluetly no connection.
Above, you said that I, “make no effort to address those versus in chapter 6 of John or the verses in which our Lord gave authority to the Apostles od which jesus made Peter their leader and therefore the leader of the Church He established.”
Yea’, and? Who is denying that the church was built on the rock that was named Peter? I haven’t. I’m denying current claims. How such claims came to be, I do not know and have never claimed to know. What I do know is this: such claims, whenever or wherever they originated, are in opposition to that which is written in the bible. Perhaps God seeing such a thing would take place, however it did, whenever it did, was the reason His words were placed on paper.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3 : 16 – 17 KJV.
Does this scripture need interpretation?
Anything that is not inline with the scripture (which is God’s word) is from the devil.
Since we are mentioning book of John:
John 14:6, 13-14 KJV
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
So why go through Mary to pray for them while its clearly stated ask in thy name (Jesus Christ) and it will be done? Why the complications??
Question from Anthony:
What does any of what you’ve written above have to do with what we’re speaking about? I can see absoluetly no connection. End of question.
The connection is this, and while it is subtle, it never the less exists;
You can’t pick and choose the words of scripture to suit your purpose and ignore those that are in contradiction to your practices of faith and worship.
John 6 is a command that Protestants have no ability to put into practice because they lack the priestly authority to change bread and wine into the Body & Blood of Christ and that is a huge issue. Apostolic authority and succession is a huge issue because Christ made it one when he gave them the power and authority to loose and bind sin. In addition, as you have alluded to, Christ did give Peter the keys to the kingdom and the gates of hell will not prevail against his and the Apostles power and authority because it is from Christ Himself.
So the connection is that the Catholic Church, through it’s Apostolic Tradition, the Chair of Peter and Sacred Scripture which confirms the first two, is the Church founded by Christ, that will always possess the power and authority to teach and profess the Truth of Christ. It’s doctrines are from the Holy Spirit and confirmed by our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ in obedience to God the Father.
Anna says:
January 17, 2012 at 3:53 pm
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3 : 16 – 17 KJV.
Timothy was a disciple of Paul’s and with the authority of Paul, a bishop / apostle, he was permitted to teach his listeners this truth, but as we are well aware, this was done with an authority other than the bible, since it didn’t exist at the time Timothy was preaching and teaching. The bible didn’t give him the authority, Paul did because Paul was an Apostle chosen by Christ himself to build up His Church, which was was founded upon the Apostles and Peter.
Please try to grasp this fact, before the Christian Bible came into being, there was a Church, founded by Christ, which was given the authority to teach and preach, baptize, forgive sins or bind them and the power and authority to change bread and wine into the Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior.
“Christ did give Peter the keys to the kingdom and the gates of hell will not prevail against his and the Apostles power and authority because it is from Christ Himself.”
I don’t know the “hows” or the “whys” behind what is happening, neither do you, but what I do know, is that it’s happening. And what is happening is this: Scripture is being used to get people to accept teachings that are in opposition to scripture. How you can be blinded to this fact, I don’t know, but you are one of MANY.
If the bible says, “don’t kill”, and you say, “it is our belief that we can kill”, why would someone be wrong in telling you that killing is wrong? You’d go on to say, “just because it isn’t written in the bible that we CAN kill, doesn’t mean it isn’t true.” And then when they say to you, “yes, saying you ‘CAN kill’ isn’t in the bible, but saying you ‘CAN’T kill’ –IS– in the bible”, you say, “well Jesus protected our church from the gates of hell, so what killing someone MUST be okay to do in God’s eyes.” So be it.
You say, “So the connection is that the Catholic Church, through it’s Apostolic Tradition, the Chair of Peter and Sacred Scripture which confirms the first two, is the Church founded by Christ, that will always possess the power and authority to teach and profess the Truth of Christ. It’s doctrines are from the Holy Spirit and confirmed by our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ in obedience to God the Father.”
If any person, church, priest, man or woman speaks things that go against the the bible, and claim that they are protected by God against “the gates of hell” when doing so, then there is something very, very wrong. Somewhere down the line, within the past 2,000 years, something went horribly astray. Whether it was a single man or a full-on religious group splitting from the original apostolic church, creating their own church and using their OWN interpretation of scripture, all the while claiming they are still an apostolic church (when they were NOT), I can’t speak on. I will say this, though: Never will I accept any teaching that is in opposition to the bible. The Catholic religion is full of man-mad traditions that are clearly in opposition to what the bible teaches, and thus why they’re teachings should always be questioned, if not fully dismissed as being Truth.
You say, “Please try to grasp this fact, before the Christian Bible came into being, there was a Church, founded by Christ, which was given the authority to teach and preach, baptize, forgive sins or bind them and the power and authority to change bread and wine into the Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior.”
John, it would be wise of you not to instruct others to try to “grasp” certain things. For 1.) because you have failed to “grasp” much of what has been said and 2.) even what you say above STILL has nothing to do with what we’re specifically speaking about. So please, say what you have to say, make your point, and leave it at that.
p.s. Why did Mary need a savior? What did she need God to save her from?
Why did Mary need a savior? What did she need God to save her from?
Anthony says:
January 17, 2012 at 5:25 pm
Why did Mary need a savior? What did she need God to save her from?
According to the teachings of the catholic Church, Mary, while she was conceived without the stain of original sin, was free to accept or reject God’s offer to be the mother of the Messiah.
Mary was saved because she was part of the human race, not because she sinned. God made it POSSIBLE for all mankind to be reconciled to the Father and therefor enter into His Kingdom unless they were to die in the sins they committed after baptism and remained on their souls at death because they chose not to repent and seek forgiveness. You will recall that Jesus gave the power to loose and bind sins, to the Apostles.
So the short answer is that God the Father chose Mary among all women of all time to participate in the incarnation of the Word. Only God knows if she needed saving because it was His decision to bring our Lord into the world through a spotless virgin; but because she was part of the human race, she benefitted by our Lord’s life, death and resurrection. If God the father created her without sin, there would be no need to save her and neither one of us knows why He would do what he did but then again, we do know that God’s ways are so far above our understanding that it will always remain a mystery and hence the need to be taken on faith.
Anthony states:
If any person, church, priest, man or woman speaks things that go against the the bible, and claim that they are protected by God against “the gates of hell” when doing so, then there is something very, very wrong. Somewhere down the line, within the past 2,000 years, something went horribly astray. Whether it was a single man or a full-on religious group splitting from the original apostolic church, creating their own church and using their OWN interpretation of scripture, all the while claiming they are still an apostolic church (when they were NOT), I can’t speak on. I will say this, though: Never will I accept any teaching that is in opposition to the bible. The Catholic religion is full of man-mad traditions that are clearly in opposition to what the bible teaches, and thus why they’re teachings should always be questioned, if not fully dismissed as being Truth. End of quote.
And so it is. You will leave this life believing what you trust is the Truth and so will I. Nothing short of dying and being in the Full Presence of God will allow either one of us to know how well we chose our path.
I’m not trying to convert anyone here but I think it’s worthwhile to challenge statements about the Catholic faith I know to be untrue. You will continue to believe what you have been taught and so will I and the one comforting statement from the Gospels is that our Lord told His Apostles that those who aren’t against us are for us and since we both proclaim Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, it would appear we are allies, even if we don’t necessarily have the same battle plan.
Matthew 7:15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
2 Peter 2:2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
Jesus said:
Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
I sense that some of Paul’s teachings are contadict to the LORD Jesus’.
Jesus said to love our enemy but Paul said to love our neigbors and hate our enemy. I didn’t hear Paul said that but many people said he did and they compared Jesus and Paul’s teachings.
I’m in Christ. 🙂 Do not hate yourselves. Deliver your words in love and respectful way.
“You will recall that Jesus gave the power to loose and bind sins, to the Apostles.”
You may also recall 1 John 1:8-10:
“8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.”
The problem is, it’s not Mary that says, “I am without sin” – she actually claims that she was in need of a “savior”, it’s the Catholic church that says such a thing. So it’s not MARY that’s calling God a liar, but rather it is the Catholic church that is implying that He is. Because if you claim that someone is “without sin”, the “TRUTH is not IN you.”
“Mary was saved because she was part of the human race, not because she sinned.”
When a lie is created, a lie has to be covered. This is why we use the bible for “reproof” and “correction.” It’s for reasons such as THIS that 1 John 1:8-10 exists.
You say, “So the short answer is that God the Father chose Mary among all women of all time to participate in the incarnation of the Word.”
True, but this is not an “answer” to my question of whether or not she is a sinner. This is simply a correct statement.
You say, “and neither one of us knows why He would do what he did”
He didn’t do what you claim He did. It’s written, so I do know.
You say, “we do know that God’s ways are so far above our understanding that it will always remain a mystery and hence the need to be taken on faith.”
No one denied God’s ways are superior to man’s ways, it’s the placing of a mere MAN on LEVEL with a God SO HIGH in standards so as to be SPOTLESS that you are being called out on. HE is “spotless” and “without sin”, and you claim “SO IS MAN.”
“You will continue to believe what you have been taught and so will I”
This is the problem. My mother is a Catholic, so it’s God I’m listening to, not what I’ve been taught. You on the other hand won’t sway from what has been ingrained in your heart and mind since you were a child, because you are content with your position. Instead of letting the Holy Spirit guide you, you let man guide you. This is why Muslims are Muslims and Jews are Jews, because if they would listen to GOD, instead of what they have been TAUGHT, then they also would know Jesus and they also would declare that it is only GOD who is sinless.
The Truth is right in front of your face and you keep denying it over and over again. You keep making God out to be a liar over and over again You’ll dig and dig to try to cover up these lies I’d bet deep down you don’t even believe are true. It’s sad enough that you don’t see the Light, but the bigger problem is that the false doctrine you speak will eventually lead some other soul down a path of thinking Mary is their guide into salvation.
You say, “the one comforting statement from the Gospels is that our Lord told His Apostles that those who aren’t against us are for us and since we both proclaim Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, it would appear we are allies, even if we don’t necessarily have the same battle plan.”
I hate to be harsh here, but your plan is what will lead many into damnation. You don’t strike me as someone arguing JUST to argue, so if you heart is sincere, I pray that the Lord open your eyes to see the Truth.
For all others, to those reading from here on in, if you have not yet made up your mind, I know it is a long read, but please go over everything that has been written on both pages and then take it from there. It would be better to do that then to come out guns blazing, as I’m sure that at least some of what you’d like to ask has been discussed already. I believe that God’s true children will be drawn to that which is True – they may be deceived for a while, but they will eventually find their way home. May the Lord bless His children and open their eyes to the Truth. Amen.
Mark 7:6-9 says, “Jesus answered them, “How right Isaiah was when he prophesied about you! You are hypocrites, just as he wrote: ’These people, says God, honor me with their words, but their heart is really far away from me. It is no use for them to worship me, because they teach human rules as though they were my laws!’ “You put aside God’s command and obey human teachings.” And Jesus continued, “You have a clever way of rejecting God’s law in order to uphold your own teaching.”
Satan loves to be worshipped. When they worship Mary, they’re worshiping Satan without knowing it. Sunday is not a worship day for God, Sunday is a day of Satan. We read that God commanded us to worship Him only in Sabbath day but why it was moved to Sun? Because of Satan great idea working through a false prophet or a religious leader, and the deceiver. Now if we arent aware of this and keep on obeying the law of a man that we didn’t realize a false prophet, that is the time we are marked by the beast. God is not pointing His finger to an individual sin but He is pointing to some churches and that is where His wrath started. We can understand it in Revelation why God is angry and still people did not repent until the judgement day. We heard that we shouldn’t pray or bow to anything that are made up of woods, that is consider honoring them. In revelation, there are images of beast and it’s clear that this beast is already existing. The antichrist existed already who taught us peace in the name of God to deceive many. It’s just a summ.. Now we should stop praying or worshipping to any dead saints, that is the idea of Satan. Let’s pray directly to God.
It’s not my own idea, it’s from a pastor who taught us and from some people’s prophesy and visions.
Acts 2:17 In the last days, God says, “I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.” This are the signs and warnings that the last day is coming. Before it’s too late, I hope many of God’s children will find the truth. God bless us all.
jfyi when it says mary was conceived without sinning it means that she was pregnant without sinning, she has conceived without sinning…because she was a an unwed virgin. Context make its more clear that is what is meant by the verse, not that she was perfect, as the child, Jesus Christ, she was pregnant with is.
jacqueline petrucci says:
“Jesus today has long been in the heavenly sanctuary deciding who are
the chosen and what they have done. He entered there in 1844 by
bible prophecy,”
What the Heck are you talking about?
John says:
Christ IS THE WAY AND THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE AND ONLY THOSE WHO COME THROUGH AND WITH HIM WILL BE PERMITTED ENTRY INTO HEAVEN, but that is not to say that Mary, his mother
is not permitted to lead souls to her son.
John- The only spiritual being who leads souls to Christ is God the Father by the power of the Holy Spirit. Are you equating Mary with the 3rd person of the trinity?
Disclaimer: I will never be rude or hateful to a Catholic, my in-laws are Catholic and I mean no hatred, only love.
I agree with Anthony and will state it plainly: The Catholic’s worship of Mary/praying to Mary or saints is BLASPHEMY. We are to pray to none but the father, nor call no man on Earth our father (priests).
God specifically points these things out for a reason. You will be absolutely without excuse on the day of judgement. It is plain as black and white, He foresaw this error and addressed in in His word yet you all continue to disobey. I am not God and cannot judge but If I were Him I would feel angry that you are giving my glory to another (God expresses this sentiment over and over in the Bible).
Apologetics are great, but without the supernatural work of the Spirit in opening minds, eyes and hearts, It is to none avail.
I pray God will have mercy on all of us, that we would not be lead astray and that He would reveal His truth to His sheep.
Herein lies the danger of self interpretation, something the Apostles were all too familiar with.
How is it that the Holy Spirit would permit such a erroneous understanding of divine revelation?
Obviously He didn’t but this is the inherent danger in not having a teaching authority.
I will repeat, there was no bible to misinterpret during the first two – three centuries and had there not been a teaching authority ( the Apostles ) Christianity would have splintered into all sorts of false understandings, of false doctrine. Which it turns out, is what happened after the great schism of the 16th century.
If you really want to know what to believe regarding Sacred Scripture, pick up the books that tell about the early Church Fathers, the Bishops, and their brilliant theological renderings. Origen, Augustine, Ambrose, Cyprian, Cyril of Alexandria, Thomas Aquinas and many others. Read about liturgy in those beginning years. Learn how the earliest Christians prayed and their understanding of the Lord’s Supper. Arm yourselves with valuable knowledge. Go back to the many centuries before the reformation and learn who protected Christians from false teachings and who set down the doctrines given to them by our Lord while he taught them on earth. Try to get past the notion that anything that contradicts your understanding of scripture, must be and always is from satan. Study the early Church.
1 Corinthians 5:8
Acts 1:10
Galatians 1:8
/praying
I am not sure if this is a catholic or protestant web site, I am just trying to get a question that has me wondering. This has to do with praying to anyone else that is not God.
1. “You shall have no other gods before me” no where does this say except for my son. It says you will only pray to God, Not the father, the son and the holy ghost. It does not says to end you prayers with “In Jesus name we pray, Amen”.
2. “You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments” No where in this does it says build a giant cross or a giant cross with Jesus on it. It does not say build grandiose churches with statues of saints and the virgin Mary to pray or pay respects to. In fact he specifically says DO NOT DO THIS, For I am a jealous God.
I just want to know how between the time of Moses and the righting of the books of the new testament, these fundamentals can completely change.
Good questions Gerald!
In your first question you take a passage from the Hebrew Scriptures i.e. the Old Testament and set it apart from the New Testament in which new commandments and new understandings are presented by Christ. It’s important to know the purpose, or maybe better stated, the meaning of the Old Testament. Everything revealed in the Old Testament pre figured and pointed towards the promised Messiah, the new and everlasting covenant in the Blood of the Pascal Lamb, Jesus the Christ. Whatever understanding existed before His entering into humanity, it was now fully revealed in the Person of Christ. Moses permitted under certain conditions, divorce. It was done, as Christ Himself stated, because of the hardness of the hearts of the people at that time. But Christ said that what God has joined together, let no man put asunder. Divorce was explicitly forbidden. On a different occasion, when questioned by a scribe, Christ was asked about the two greatest commandments and He answered the way the Jews would have known was correct but then He said that there is to be a new understanding of how you are to treat your neighbor, you are to treat them as I do. Which we know is unconditionally and even unto death.
These are but a few examples of how we are to view the Old Testament. What had been partially revealed then was now fully revealed in Christ. God the Father only alluded to His Son in the Old Testament, especially through Isaiah but now through the Gospel writers, the Son was fully revealed and the relationship between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit was fully revealed in the New Testament. If you really look closely at all the inter related passages regarding the triune nature of God, you come to the reality that by praying to any one of the three Persons, you are praying to them all. It has to be that way because there is only one God but that God has three natures. This is understood by the Catholic Church as an unknowable mystery that must be taken on faith but will be revealed fully upon our physical death and our soul coming before this God. This is sort of a long answer so a little later I will attempt to answer your second question.
Gerald, your second question can be answered in a similar fashion to the first. The Old Testament was dealing with people who literally had been practicing pagan rituals. They were
worshipping statues and other man made images as if they were actually gods and had some sort of power over nature. God, through Moses, corrected that error by telling them that there is only one true God and He is that God and there is no image or likeness and there is nothing you can imagine that is actually Him.
But again, that all changed with the birth of Christ. It was now possible to see the image of God in human form. He had a body and a face and even if the future renderings were not precise, they still represented Jesus the Christ, the second Person of the Most Holy Trinity. So the early Church’s artwork depicting our Lord was no sin. Just as it was not and is not now a sin to memorialize the crucifixion of our Lord by placing his likeness on wooden crosses.
As far as statues of Mary and Joseph and other saints are concerned, Catholics do not worship these images, they use them to call to mind the holy lives they lived on earth with the hopes of emulating them for the glory and pleasure of God. While lifting their minds to these spiritual ideals, the faithful ask for the powerful intercessory prayer the Church teaches they can offer on our behalf. You certainly don’t have to believe this is possible or necessary but if it’s true, you are missing out on some pretty powerful spiritual aid. But you will most likely do as you were taught.
Mquia says:
January 29, 2012 at 12:41 am
Old Testament reveals Promise, New Testament reveals fulfillment. End of Quote
The Old Testament reveals to humanity that there is only one God.
The New Testament reveals to humanity, the true and full nature of God. We do not know from the Old Testament that Jesus is the Son of God and the Word through which all things are created. In the Old Testament we are told that the way to God is through obeying His commands, His laws. In the New Testament we are told that the way to God is through His Son Who is the Truth and the Life and the Way.
That sounds more like the completion of revelation, than it does promise and fulfillment.
It is true that Jesus is the fulfillment of the promise but the fact that Jesus, the Word Incarnate actually entered into our humanity, became man, while remaining to be God, is the reason or purpose for the promise. Because Jesus is God, He stated, if you have seen Me you have seen the Father. This was as far as God could go in revealing Himself short of the beatific vision, which no man can survive while living.
The promise in the Old Testament was to the Jews, it was for them the Messiah was to come. In the New Testament the discover the Messiah is for all mankind. That was a rather dramatic change but it was not really a change, it was the completion of revelation.
If you were a Jew in the first century and then were baptized a Christian, it was no longer necessary to be circumcised it was no longer a requirement for salvation. If you had been eating pork on Saturday as a Jew you had broken the law and sinned against God but if on Sunday, you ate Pork as a newly baptized Christian, you have not sinned, you are still right with the Lord.
Dietary laws CHANGED. These things are most certainly in the Old Testament and they changed but only because Christ fully revealed what God wanted from His highest form of creation, obedience to His Son’s Words. That is why God the Father, at the transfiguration, stated, ” This is my Son of Whom I am well pleased, LISTEN TO HIM.”
Jesus Himself stated that He hadn’t come to take away the law and He didn’t, He simply gave humanity the perfect understanding of the meaning and purpose for the law. Unnecessary parts or components of the law were eliminated but the heart of the law concerning, the purpose for it’s existence, Love, remained. Love God above all else and love your fellow man as Christ loved and continues to love and you will have obeyed all of the laws.
Well presented Patrick!
The difficulty for many Protestants I would imagine, is one of acceptance. If you have been raised in a family, worshipped with and agree with the tenants of their faith, your fully committed. Using your ability to reason, you accept as absolute truth, that which you have been taught. People of all religions do this as a common practice. In a very real sense, God comes to the devout of all religions with His Holy Spirit and souls are saved through that same spirit because the Holy Spirit is inseparable from the Father as is the Son, they comprise ONE GOD.
It is said in the Catechism of the Catholic Church that the Holy Spirit subsists in it. That the Holy Spirit, as it did at Pentecost, breathes it’s life upon the faithful through the Sacraments. Every Baptism, every Confirmation, every reception of Christ in the Eucharist, every properly made Confession, every Marriage blessed by God and His Church, every Ordination, every time a person is anointed while facing potentially looming death, the Holy Spirit floods that person with His Presence, God’s Grace.
Knowledgeable Catholics do not consider themselves loved by God above any human being and they trust that God will show His Mercy to all that profess His name and follow His commands.
What well informed Catholics trust to be true is that the safest route to heaven, the most knowledgeable guide, the army with the greatest arsenal of weapons to fight and destroy evil,
is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
It’s not that people can’t get to heaven by using another guide or taking a somewhat different route or making that journey with fewer means of self protection; it’s that they believe their salvation can best be worked out in the safety and power of it’s mystical body, the Church, whose Head is Christ. Catholics believe and say, in it’s highest form of public worship, through the anointed and consecrated priests, that is through Christ and with Christ and in Christ that ALL GLORY AND HONOR AND PRAISE IS OUR ALMIGHTY FATHER’S, FOREVER AND EVER. It is a profession of faith that unites all of the Catholic faithful with Christ as their High priest in perfect
adoration of God the Father.
The Catholic Church works with, in and through Christ to offer perfect praise to His Father, it offers PERFECT PRAISE because of Christ, and those who love, honor and obey Him.
A sincere Catholic doesn’t love God any more than a sincere Protestant, and God doesn’t love one more than the other, a sincere Catholic does believe that Grace, the gift of God’s presence in our souls is more easily received through the sacramental life of the Church and from the perspective of one who loves God and wants to spend eternity in His glorious Presence, that is a good thing.
I’m catholic! My Mom is cancer survivor because she had faith that she prayed and prayed about her illness. She prayed and meditate on Rosary until that day she got healed. We pray to Mary as our intercessor so she can pray for us through his Son and to God. Amen. I don’t judge other religions. If we pray to one God alone and if we believe in Jesus, as our
Saviour, our Lord, our God and confess and repent our sins, we have salvation, a gift from God. I have a personal relationship with God and also, I meditate on Rosaries (praying to God), cause Mary says that “God exist” that God wants his Children to come and return to Him before it is too late. This was a testimony from Medjugorge messages in Bosnia, where Mother of God appears. I have seen miracles when we pray to Holy Mary, God does restores our souls.
Ephesians 6: The Whole Armor of God
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. 14 Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace. 16 In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; 17 and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, 18 praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, 19 and also for me, that words may be given to me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains, that I may declare it boldly, as I ought to speak.
Jackie:
Let’s not consider all miracles are from God. Because it is written, that an enemy of God can perform miracles. Jesus reminded us that many false prophets shall rise and perform miracles, and in the book of revelation, we can read about the beast that can perform miracles to deceive people. It’s an enemy of God.
Do not be deceived. Many preachers out there are false. Do not follow them, they think they have Jesus in their lives but they don’t know the real Jesus because they don’t have the truth, they are just blinds who lead the blinds, misleading people. They are false brides of Christ. They are not persecuted. Rosary prayer like you said is just a garbage from Hell. Satan made all false doctrines and beliefs in many churches and perform miracles.
We need to seek Jesus with all our hearts. Our personal relationship with Jesus is the most important, putting Him first in our minds and in our hearts. Relationship with Jesus begins in our faith. And when you are already in a relationship with Him, He will guide you to the truth. He will become our everything, we love Him more than ourselves.
I believe in my relationship with Jesus because I’ve seen a lot of evidence. I know Him because I love Him so much. If you are not putting Him first in your heart and mind and still living in the lifestyle of this world, not doing His will but your will, desiring worldy things and goals, then you have not surrendered your life to Jesus, that means you are not walking with Him. I’m living in His presence and I feel deep love for Him. So I believe the truth in me, I do not believe in any doctrines that the church teaches. The truth can only be found in the Bible. Jesus taught me that Christmas, Easter and Valentines are pagans. He protected me from all pagans and false beliefs. I have a communication with few God’s true servants and we have the same beliefs. They are followers of Jesus that are scattered. Jesus appeared to them in dreams many times and gave them messages to warn people.
I do not want to argue but my spirit says to warn. I say this message with love coz I love all God’s people and I want them to be saved. Jesus has a beautiful peaceful eyes, and will look furious in the judgement day. He is loving but He is just a judge. His day is coming but many are not ready. Kingdom of God is hard to enter. Jesus said, many will try to enter but will not be able to. Someday, the door to salvation will be closed forever. So we should make an effort.
If you are not accepting my warning, I respect your beliefs. Follow what you want to follow. I’ll follow only the Lord Jesus and His word. Sometimes, the devil will trick you and play with your emotions, will say “Do not believe!” Sometimes, a way seems right to a man but the end of it leads to death. God will have mercy to those who have mercy. So be merciful and keep faith.
I had left this conversation as it seemed to be the battle of catholics vs others,alot of defending going on,where us as Christians our only truth should come from one true book- the word of God, as for me I will follow the bible truth only,
I came across this article and had to share. A frank and honest admission from the Catholic Cardinal Henry Newman in his “Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine”, admitting that the Catholic Church adopted and absorbed paganism into the Catholic Church!
some qoutes from this article.
“Confiding then in the power of Christianity to resist the infection of evil, and to transmute the very instruments and appendages of demon worship to an evangelical use, and feeling also that these usages had originally come from primitive revelations and from the instinct of nature, though they had been corrupted; and that they must invent what they needed, if they did not use what they found; and that they were moreover possessed of the very archetypes, of which paganism attempted the shadows; the rulers of the Church from early times were prepared, should the occasion arise, to adopt, to imitate, or sanction the existing rites and customs of the populace, as well as the philosophy of the educated class.”
(Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, John Henry Newman, a cardinal by Pope Leo III in 1879, 1878, p351-353)
“The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holy days and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison, are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church.”
(Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, John Henry Newman, a cardinal by Pope Leo III in 1879, 1878, p351-353)
coming from one of them its so clear it adapted paganism into their church in order to draw more people to church..this is clear cut, if you mix water with poison..it will be deadly it doesnt matter if it looks like water, you drink it you die, its simple paganism and christianity cant mix, its either you follow the Bible truth, or you are on the other side,
true about the miracles..the best story in the bible, when Moses was facing Pharaoh and his gods, they did the same “miracle” he did, turning the stick to a snake, so yes there can be all sorts of miracles, even in the new testament as Jackie pointed out they will come false prophets perfoming many miracles. My people will Perish of lack of knowledge, the truth is out there dont let no man tell you whats true, pray to God and He will lead you to the truth.
I have been born and raised catholic and now at the age of 32 I went down on my knees and asked God for knowledge, the reason was, 2 priests had come on to me,I refused and one even refused to talk to me and told my family a different story about why he aint talking to me, sadly my family believed him over me ofcoz he was a priest! sadly he passed on, and from that I didnt desire to even go to church anymore, but I said i wont let 2 men make me not have that r/ship with God, so I went down on my knees and truth is coming to me daily. exposing the catholic church.
The true church of Christ in the bible is not a building or a temple but we, the people is the church, his true brides are the people who are seeking Him and having a one on one relationship with Him. God loves us all, we are all His children. But Jesus said, many are called but few are chosen. Many will call Him, “Lord’ Lord” But He will tell them plainly “Depart from me, I never knew you.” Many honor Him with their lips but their hearts are far from Him. They worship Him in vain because their teachings are merely ‘human rules’. Many false prophets in sheep clothings shall rise misleading the mass. Who are we going to follow? Those who defend their church from Jesus’ teachings love their church more than Jesus. We will be judged by the Lord in His coming and there will be no more excuses. The Church will not save us, not a salvation prayer, not pastors, not dead saints, He is our one and only saviour. I can’t help you, people can’t, you need to seek the Lord with all your hearts and walk with Him. Repent and grab His hands. I encourage everyone, all brides of Christ should unite. We should check our spirits because not all receive the gift of holy spirit. We will know if we have the holy spirit because it will guide us to the truth. We will no longer desiring for earthly things but we are seeking the Kingdom of God. It is written that a friend of the world is an enemy of God. I’m 19y.o from Asia, an ex-Catholic because the Lord called me out. And now, I don’t belong to any denominations. The Lord told me to follow Him only, not a man, not a religion because they have mixed their beliefs with pagans and human teachings that are unpleasing to Him. He is not pleased. It’s the beginning of His wrath, wake up. The Lord loves us so much that he doesn’t want anyone of us to perish. He is patient for our sake. The Lord can shake this earth very easy. Floods, earthquakes and etc can be the sign of His coming or it represent His anger. He is in full control. I am not unkind to Catholic people, I love them, I know they love God but consider it as a warning. Because the Lord gave me a message to encourage and don’t let anyone go away without stopping them. He is warning out of love because He cares for our souls. There will be no mercy without repentance.
Quia I can tell the Spirit of God is in you, be blessed and may you fulfill your God given purpose on this earth, so young yet you got wisdom more than any older adult, I also don’t go church anymore as I haven’t found a true bible teaching church, until then I worship and praise my Lord in my house, God bless you all this should be about truth and not defense of a religion, the truth is there, we have the bible as our guideline anything out of it is not of God but God has given us free will to choose,
How about we examine the thinking that salvation is best found in a personal, one on one relationship with Christ.
Our Lord said something along the lines that wherever two or more of you are gathered, I am there with you. In the sermon on the mount or in the plain, our Lord used the words blessed are the ________ _______ _________ for THEY
The server or something went haywire so I’ll continue my thoughts. Our Lord used THEY not he or she, plural not singular. In Matthew’s gospel, chapter 25, especially 31-46 all Christians are given a stern warning of what is expected of each of us. We are a community of people, a world wide community of people, all created by God and therefore valuable beyond understanding. It is in this understanding that we are all in this together that our salvation will be worked out.
Think of it this way; If you were to draw a vertical line that represented your personal relationship with God you would not have the cross of Christianity, but as soon as you draw the horizontal line that represents our relationships with each other, you do.
If you were to memorize every word in the bible and could quote them at will but never put those words into practice, you will have wasted your time and that of those who listened. The purpose of the words of Sacred Scripture is to put into action the teachings of Christ.
Christ sent the disciples out two by two, to preach and heal and at the end of John’s gospel, to baptize the world in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. A disciple can’t do much good by him or herself, at home trying to work out their own salvation.
When a Christian comes to the understanding that they will be saved in and by the selfless efforts to save their fellow man, they will have followed our Lord’s teachings and commands.
Look at St. Paul, how well would Christianity have spread in the first century A.D. had he stayed home and simply read the Jewish Scriptures? How many Churches would have been founded like those at Rome, Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, Thessalonia… ?
I’l offer another example; If you have one thin strand of string, it would be relatively easy to stretch and break that single strand but it you take a dozen more of those thin strands and intertwine them, it will be much harder to stretch and break that new rope.
The New Testament is full of examples that point to the absolute need for Christians to act in community and love each other as Christ loved each and every one of us.
There certainly is nothing wrong with having a personal relationship with our Lord, He desires that, but that isn’t the end of the story, we must then go out into the world and be the salt of the earth and the light of Christ, after being strengthened to do so as a result of our personal relationship.
God desires our hearts and prayers. He wants us to be in constant communication but He also wants us as a community of believers to offer Him public worship so that we may all strengthen the other. God doesn’t need us or our prayers but He does Love us and He does want us all to spend eternity with Him.
Salvation will be found through Christ, and with Him and in Him and when we realize that He is found in the poor, the hungry, the naked, the homeless, the imprisoned then we take the words of scripture and bring them to life.
May God bless us all abundantly and protect all of us and our families from harm and evil.
John: I was curious to see what you will say about that article by the Cardinal admitting mixing paganism and christianity which really is the base for this discussion, that said I want to point out that the church in the Bible talks about Gods people, and the centre of it, and who Gods people should look upon is Jesus christ, ROmans 12: 4-6: 4For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
6Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
if you look at our body we each have different parts, which serve a specific purpose in the operation of the body, God has given us gifts which we should all use to bring Gods people together, those going astray are led to the right path, unite as one body, Jesus christ being the body, so all roads should not lead to rome, all roads should lead to the message of the cross, Jesus christ! which is bible truth! so any church going against any bible truth I cannot go there if they consistently refuse to go back to the scriptures for reproof, for correction, etc.
my focus is still in God, and I am using my God given gift to bring people back to focus on Jesus Christ which is how it should be, I refuse to go to a church tainted with paganism until I find one that teaches truth I will attend and I believe God will lead me to one, meanwhile am not just staying idle, I am busy spreading word to my friends to go back to reading the bible and praying, we have bible study groups, we pray together, and we bring more people to the bible truth and to focus on Jesus Christ, another thing I should point out is, more Bible truth has come to me now that am off church than when I was going to church I sometimes wish I knew this ages ago but its all Gods plan his ways are not our ways,and I feel I am being prepared for something greater and bigger.
and as I am still waiting for the right church so much revelation is coming to me, that I literally wanna call a confrence with all my family and friends and tell them whats happening, but baby steps firts,
I am over and out, I wish you all Gods blessing, may you all come to fulfill your God given purpose,
I don’t say fellowship with Christians is wrong. It’s okay to listen to them preaching the gospels. But do not follow them. Churches today have mixed Jesus’ teachings with pagans, false doctrines and human rules that are unpleasing to Him. Most churches do not preach the truth that can save souls. If they would speak the truth then they would be persecuted, they would be rejected but they are part of the world. The wrath of God will come on these churches for their wickedness also because they are leading people astray. They are promising them salvation which they themselves do not have. They themselves do not know the real Jesus Christ.
Come out from amongst them and be holy and Jesus will accept you as a child of God. Jesus wants to have a personal and intimate relationship with each one of us. He rewards those who diligently seek Him. Friend, are you in a relationship with Christ or are you part of these churches? Which do we prefer. Do not think that you will get into heaven by giving money to your church or by saying a sinners prayer and paying Him lip service. We cannot use Jesus as a convenience. People of church do good deed for Christ in their actions for the poor, sick, widow, fatherless, orphans but they do not love Him with a pure heart.
If you follow Jesus you will be saved, but if you follow a false Christian path to salvation you cannot be saved. You can only find Him if you seek Him with all your heart, repent daily, turn away from sins and speak humbly to Him in anyways. You do not have to pray in proper way or reciting a religious prayer. Say what your heart speaks, proper words is not important to Him but the heart.
False teachings lead you to death, it is sin for God. Many Christians follow false paths, they believe many philosophies and false doctrines can get them into the Kingdom.
Do not be decieved. Do not trust anyone but Jesus. Do not believe and trust everything that you hear and see to be real and truth. Do not follow after signs, miracles and wonders. The enemy has ensnared many, they believe the fake and reject the true. Do not believe these dead saints to help you. These are fake things, made by Satan, perform miracles to deceive many. Follow Jesus every step of the way, then you will not be deceived.
Not all churches are false but the church where I came out is a hoax. I just study the bible and Jesus Himself revealed to me in my dream. I nowhere to go but the Lord warned me to just stay with Him. He also said to warn people because many are decieved. People believe and trusted fake men, women, preachers and teachers who pretend to be who they are not. He said that “False people will arise and even proclaim to be of Me but they are not.” Many people follow these false prophets because they do not know Him.
He said through my thoughts “They cannot blame Me, they will be full of regrets when it is too late. I warn them but they do not listen.” He is alive, He’s around us. He also said not to limit His power because nothing is impossible with Him.
If you want to hear His voice, the holy spirit will help you. Just make sure it is not a voice of a devil that sounded like true. They will do everything to stop you from communicating to the Lord. But they cannot control us, Jesus is our only solution.
Jesus said: My sheep hear my voice, I know them, they follow me. John 10:27
He said: Draw closer to Me and I will draw closer to you, seek Me and you shall find me.
The Lord loves us all and He cares for us. That’s why He is warning us because He wants us to be saved. May the truth open hearts. Only the truth can set anyone free. Be blessed.
Thanks sister. You are right, it’s all about the truth. The Lord called you for a purpose and to be used by Him according to His plan and purpose for this time. The Lord will reward us all according to our deeds. Let no one take your crown. We must stay with Jesus and focus on Him. Yeshua bless you.
Did Jesus pray for the dead? Did Jesus speak to the dead? Did anyone hear Jesus speaking to the dead? Did Jesus teach anyone about speaking to the dead? Where the dead benifitted by Jesus praying for them? Are the dead now benifitted by Jesus praying for them? Did any one object to Jesus praying to the dead? Did anyone object to Hin speaking to the dead?
I believe he told his dead friend Lazarus to come out of the place where they laid him.
Hi All,
I thought i would get into this conversation I have had experience praying to saints, to marry etc and i have to say it works i have had a lot of amazing things come from this. I have praying for years as a christian i don’t know how well that went but for some reason praying with the Saints not to but with them it allows your prayers to get heard faster i guess i have no idea but server times when i have prayed the St. Joseph prayer this has worked countless times i can’t even explain it. I don’t know why but this works amazing. There are lots of things also we need to realize that used to connect us to the old but we have to start getting ourselves to remember and humble ourselves we are so caught up in so many things you have to disconnect those things we are supposed to pray to Christ in a private room. I don’t know just rambling but its just a point i thought i might make. It worked for me thats all i can say.
If praying to dead saints is wrong, how does one explain Revelation 5:8?
Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us[a] kings[b] and priests to our God;
And we[c] shall reign on the earth.”
The one this is referring to is Jesus – who is NOT dead – yes, He was slain – and He rose on the third day.
.
Nowhere in God’s Holy Written Word does He say – or even imply – that we are to pray to someone/anything except JESUS CHRIST. HE is our intercessor to GOD.
Anna, I’m excited to see that you are going to explore what you see as bad in the Catholic Church. I think that if you do authentic searching, you will discover that all you think you know about the one true Church is false and you won’t find our beauty any where else. God bless you on your journey home.
Hello Sandra,
I don’t know where you get the idea that I am ‘exploring’ what is ‘bad’ in the catholic church, most denominations have their flaws, I have chosen to follow the one true God, the God of the Bible, Jesus The Way, the Truth and the Life. and any denomination preaching a gospel different from that I will not follow, this post was primarily mentioning praying to dead saints and a lot of arguments came up about Catholics, I was merely pointing out the little knowledge I have acquired concerning the doctrines in the Catholic Church, I have no right to say something is bad or not that is not me especially with doctrines, I can only say I cannot follow a doctrine being preached that’s contrary to what the Bible tells me,Choose this day whom you will serve, as for me and my house we will serve the Lord and the Lord alone.
Here are a few thoughts that can be taken from actions that are explicit in the Bible;
It was Peter who correctly stated that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God, and our Lord stated that he knew this not from his own knowledge but because the Father told him this truth.
Peter denied Christ three times during his Passion and then after His resurrection, Christ asked Peter three times if he loved Him and Peter atoned for his three denials by saying yes Lord. Then our Lord instructed Peter to feed his sheep and lambs and tend His flock.
Like Abraham who had been named Abram, Peter was renamed by our Lord after having been known as Simon.
Abraham was the patriarch of the Isrealites, Peter the new patriarch of Christ’s followers. We know this because scripture tells us that when Jesus renamed Simon he also stated that he was building his Church upon him, whose name in Greek is Petros, meaning rock.
At the very beginning of the Acts of the Apostles, it is Peter who performs the type of miracle our Lord had been performing while still on this earth; he gave a cripple his legs back to be able to walk.
Which is more logical? Does scripture give us all this information so that we can get to know a man who died 2,000 years ago or does it lead us to understand the primacy the head of the apostles was given by Christ Himself and then handed down to his successors?
Before you deny this primacy and the apostolic succession just mentioned, what does scripture tell us happened after the resurrection but before Pentecost? Did not the apostles fill the office left vacant by Judas Iscariot by making Matthias his replacement? If not, why does scripture tell us that Peter and the eleven were present when the Holy Spirit came over them at Pentecost?
Does not scripture also tell us that Barnabas became an apostle and a companion of St. Paul? Sure looks like the number of apostles is growing as the Church grew. If you were to research the writings of the early Church fathers of the first three centuries A.D. you would discover that there were even more bishops overseeing the new churches that St. Paul established, as did other apostles of the original twelve.
A question you might ask yourself is why did Jesus give the apostles the power and authority to forgive and bind man’s sins if man simply needed to confess his or her sins directly to God? Did scripture make a mistake or was Christ speaking in parables? Almost any scripture scholar of any worth would dismiss the notion that Christ was speaking in parables; it was an explicit responsibility given to these first apostles and then passed on through apostolic succession. There are no mistakes in the bible.
I could continue by discussing the true meaning behind the miracles of the fish and loaves and the turing water into wine as type of the sacrifice our Lord offered at the last supper and on the cross when he told the original twelve apostles that the bread and wine they were about to receive was actually His Body and Blood and then the next day, blood and water gushed from His side after being pierced by the lance of the soldier. That is an equally important discussion that leads us to the sixth chapter of John’s Gospel speaking to the need to eat His Flesh and drink His Blood; using a double amen which in no other place within scripture, is taken any other way than explicitly. In fact, when Jesus proclaimed this to His listeners, His new disciples, many turned away and said this is too difficult to follow and yet Christ did not stop them and say he was speaking in parables; he let them go on their own way. He then asked His apostles if they too planned on leaving and PETER said something profound, “No Lord, who would we follow, it is You that has the words of eternal life” This after Jesus had just stated that those who eat His Flesh and drink His Blood have eternal life in them. Where is the only place on earth that proclaims it has the authority and ability to change ordinary bread and wine into this eternal food, the new manna from heaven?
May you all be blessed in your search to find and live the eternal truths.
May each and every one of you who read these words be blessed abundantly with the peace of Christ,
John T.
He came and received the scroll from the right hand of the one who sat on the throne. When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones. Rev 5:7-8
Intercessors of our prayers.
All of God,s people on earth are called saints , which means holy ones called out , it’s their prayers that the Angel’s take to the father , why would Angel’s be takeing dead saints , prayers to God for we are not to pray to the dead , they cant hear, see, speak concious of nothing , according to God ?
Dear Saint
Thank you for this article it help me a lot
I come from a family who believe in praying for the dead and when ever
God blesses them they think is the dead and they consult spiritualist
In order to communicate with the dead .
When ever I tell them about God they don’t bealive , and it hurt
Me to see my family going to hell because of their believe .
I pray and believe that one day they will see the light
Thank you
God bless
The article addresses some real issues that foster waywardness in Christians from the infallible word of God. The article mentioned that we should not pray to people because they are in heaven. Two things that I need clarification on are: it was my understanding that when people die they are sleeping and awaiting judgement day ( 1 Peter 4:5 and 2 Timothy 4:1); therefore, how can they be in heaven, if they have not been judged? Also, saints were canonized by the Roman Catholic Church (Council of Nicea and Constantine) according to their church doctrine that is not sound biblical doctrine, as they to this day continue to canonize persons to sainthood. There are references to saints in the bible; the word “saint” is derived from a Greek verb (hagiazo [aJgiavzw]) whose basic meaning is “to set apart, ” “sanctify, ” or “make holy.” Are we all not to be set apart, sanctified, or holy? (1 Peter 1:15-16) Are we not made in his likeness and image? So, why would we not be saints?
Would have thought this thread was dead and buried by now.
The Reformation took place more than 1,500 years after our Lord’s resurrection.
Therefore, the products of that reformation can NOT be the Church our Lord founded on earth — because the one He did found was guaranteed to prevail for all time. He didn’t promise that a future Church would take it’s place.
Jesus, after recognizing that His Father in heaven infused Simon the apostle with the knowledge that Jesus was the Christ, changed his name to Peter (Petros – rock in Greek) and gave him the keys to the kingdom and the authority to loose and bind sin. Why?
At the opening of the Acts of the Apostles, why does the Gospel writer make a point of telling us that it was Peter who performed the first miracle after Pentecost? Also, why did the Gospel writers go into great detail to tell us of our Lord’s conversation with Peter in which he asked him three times if he loved Him and Peter’s three responses — which were followed by our Lord’s admonition to, feed my sheep and feed my flock and feed my lambs? What did our Lord mean by that?
In the sixth chapter of John, our Lord informs his followers, disciples, apostles, that unless they eat His flesh and drink His blood, they have no life in them. What did he mean? At the Last Supper, our Lord took bread, blessed it, offered it up to His Father and gave it to the Twelve saying, that they should take it and eat for this was now His flesh that would be given up for them. He also took the cup and after giving thanks to His Father, blessed it and told them to drink of the cup which was now his blood, which would be given up for them. Where but in the Catholic Church is there to be found the means to eat His true flesh and drink His true blood? If the twelve apostles made up the nucleus of the Church founded by Christ and were sent forth on Pentecost, to baptize all nations in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit — what Church other than the Catholic Church can trace it’s roots to the twelve?
If there was some sort of apostasy and that Church failed, then did not Christ’s promise also fail?
You might do yourselves a favor and start reading about the early Church fathers and see what they had to say about the struggles and victories of the first few centuries after our Lord ascended back into His Kingdom.
One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!
In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.
The prayers of the saints , is the liveing saints on the earth who are alive , all of Christs people are called saints , includeing those alive , hence the Angel’s are bring the prayers of his people to him in the bowls , from the liveing saints 9n the earth , if you look in scripture , many times the aposiles call Gods people on earth saints , they give liveing saints , food to eat , shelter etc now you dont feed the dead or give them shelter, and true saints only pray to God , alone ,
When you ask your friends who belive as you do to pray with you , and for you , they are liveing saints and they only pray to God as jesus says , in luke 4 v8 worship only God
Hi I would really appreciate some clarification here. I have a friend who is born again two years now. She says she has regular visits from the saints, who communicate with her and also the apostle Paul. (yes from the bible) she says she has many visions and encounters. I told her I believe this goes against scripture and is necromancy. She got upset with me and saidsaid, “I do not conjure up familiar spirits, I don’t go looking for them, they come to me and I test the spirit). Now I know the bible says to test the spirits but it also says do not communicate with the dead. So I’m confused and not sure what to believe. She says moat church going Christians are too religious and Gods doing new work in us. Advice please and blessings.
She needs to make sure who is really speaking to her because the Bible says that the devil has changed himself into an angel of light. She needs to make sure that demons are not coming to her in the form of saints. Thanks
Josie, you study the bible but you lack true interpretations of what you read because you read it in the flesh, TO side a demonic doctrine in the name of denomination, rather than have the holy Spirit teach you His word so that the truth can set you free once you believe. THE very revelation 5:8 you talk about is a future revelation of what is going to happen when we have left this earth and the new heaven and earth is set, and you can read from verses 1-14. To understand better, so if you want to continue praying to saints, you are free, but at the end you will have yourself to blame for involving in doctrine of demons…
WOW. There are real perversions of the scripture in many of these comments. Jesus is the ONLY one resurrected from the grave who said, “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no man comes to the Father accept through Me”.
No other person in the Bible said that.
We are all called saints if we have accepted Christ as our Savior. We are joint hiers with Him but we by no means have the power to forgive sins. Only God can do that.
The Bible says that the dead in Christ will rise first upon His return for us. The Bible needs not be interpreted by our finite little minds compared to the finite wisdom of God.
When people die, they do not become ghosts or angels. For those who follow Christ, their spirits are taken to be in His presence (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). Those who did not follow Christ are tormented until final judgment (Luke 16:22-23). There is nothing in the Bible to indicate that the dead have influence over events on earth. In fact, the Bible says that there are no grief, tears, or unhappiness in heaven (Revelation 21:4), which seems to preclude those in heaven from even knowing what is happening on earth.
Instead of holding the dead near, the Bible warns us to have nothing to do with trying to speak with the dead. Deuteronomy 18:10-12 says that God will drive out those who call up the dead. Leviticus 19:31 says that meeting with a medium or spiritist defiles the one who came, and Leviticus 20:27 says the punishment for being a medium or spiritist was death.
There is one account of a medium in the Bible actually communing with the dead. In 1 Samuel 28, beset by the Philistines, King Saul goes to a medium (literally: “mistress of the ghost”) to get advice from the late prophet Samuel. When God does allow Samuel to show up, Samuel responds “Why have you disturbed me…?” (vs. 15). Samuel was not pleased about returning his attentions to earth. He did not want to leave where he was.
Only God is able to hear our prayers and answer them wisely. He is never out of our reach (Psalm 139:7-12). He is powerful enough to do what we want (Revelation 19:6). But He is also wise enough to know what we need (Psalm 147:4-5).
There are two verses which, taken out of context, seem to suggest praying to the dead. The first is Hebrews 12:1 which starts, “Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight …” This verse directly follows a list of Old Testament people who are noted for their faithfulness to God. The “cloud of witnesses” surrounding us means Old Testament saints. But it does not mean those saints are literally surrounding us. Instead, their legacy and example permeates the church, giving us encouragement to live as we should.
The second verse is used to justify praying to saints. James 5:16b says, “The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.” Some take this to mean we should ask the righteous in heaven to pray for us. But the verse comes on the heel of several admonitions for the letter’s audience to pray for healing and repentance. There is no mention of praying to the dead or asking the dead to pray for us.
Praying to the dead is unbiblical. The Bible condemns it as both useless and dangerous. Very often, personal issues are left unresolved when a loved one dies. Those left behind may wish to speak the words they needed to say beforehand, in hopes that the dead can hear. If the dead was a believer, they most likely give no thought to their earthly trials. If they weren’t, they will be tormented forever. Either way, they can’t hear us.
Instead, speak to the only One Who can bring closure to our own hearts. Tell God how you feel, what you think about the other person, and whatever regrets you may have. Jesus is the only mediator we need; because of His sacrifice “Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need” (Hebrews 4:16). The power of Christ in us brings healing, not the involvement of the dead.
Excellent , people tend to think ie r catholics that its diffrent when they pray to dead saints in heaven that its diffrent from going to a medium because its themselves that are praying to these dead saints ,
But there is no diffrence from praying to the dead saints , and calling them up through a spirit medium they are still calling them up , because they are asking that dead saint to do something for you,
It’s important to realize that all those biblical passages are referring to mediums as in using spirits to get stuff done for us. That’s witchcraft and demonic dealings. Praying to saints is an entirely different idea. They aren’t mediums, and it’s true they aren’t powerful in themselves. Praying to a saint is just like asking a Christian friend here on earth to pray for you. They go to God with our requests, just like friends here. This is actually a full affirmation of the Church’s unity and wholeness. The saints in heaven are not separated from us, but are part of the very same church that we are.
I understand that mediums can come in all shapes and sizes. But could you explain how praying to a saint isn’t using them as a medium?
While the living followers of Christ do meet, and we do pray for each other. This is a world of a difference from praying to a dead church friend and asking them to pray on your behalf. Which, is not even what Catholics, or Orthodox do- they pray to the dead, who they don’t even know. Why should we consider these to be “just like” one another?
Conor
But they have passed from this earth and do not dwell in flesh and blood here on earth like a Christian friend you can talk to in person.
If you are referring to going to a saint that is Alive on earth, than that is like going to a Christian friend to ask them to pray for you.
I hope that helps clear it up.
Should a christian attend the releasing of sky lanterns into the sky, in remembrance/death anniversary of a friend’s loved one. Thank you.
Amazing! Thank you so much! God has given you such a diligent spirit to work for Him clarifying for us, His remnant, difficult questions. As I grew up in a Christian orthodox home, saints were everywhere, and the moment I stopped praying to them in obedience to Gid ‘s Word, my life changed! It was maybe 10 years ago. But my relatives still do it despite me explaining in patience this issue. And it is a difficult one even it was for me, because as you mention there are so many “good” reasons to do so (the devil is deceitful, the angel of “light”). But the same people do not read the Bible, you see… Let’s pray for them, because the devil is a lier and tries to manupulate all of us anyway he can. Thank you again and I pray God blesses you for your humble efforts.